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March 19, 2019 at 3:31 pm (This post was last modified: March 19, 2019 at 3:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's understandable, most of us want to be the good guys. The funny/troubling bit is that it;s this desire coupled with the fundamental core of theism of any stripe...that ones cultural prejudices can be elevated to the status of a universe in proper order, that keeps us doing the same shit over and over and rationalizing that after the fact as people having been "doing it wrong"
Nope, they nailed it. It just hasn't aged well.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(March 19, 2019 at 3:31 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: It's understandable, most of us want to be the good guys. The funny/troubling bit is that it;s this desire coupled with the fundamental core of theism of any stripe...that ones cultural prejudices can be elevated to the status of a universe in proper order, that keeps us doing the same shit over and over and rationalizing that after the fact as people having been "doing it wrong"
Nope, they nailed it. It just hasn't aged well.
The majority claims virtue because they are the majority. The minority claims virtue because they are not.
Problem is in the scope of our species history, the terms majority and minority are hollow knowing times change and knowing we are not a separate species.
Religion informs peoples expectations and frames their experience. Insomuch as a religion informs some shitty expectation and frames subsequent experience in a detrimental way, it's a contributing factor to any end product of nastiness. We could always suggest that there were other factors, but this is just a kid pointing at his friends and saying "but timmy hit him too, mom".
Conceptually, it works the same way for any positive outcome attributable to a persons religion.
The trouble is in isolating some positive thing unique to any religion, whereas a given religions specific shittiness is among the set of known knowns.
So, for example, any monotheist who justifies their shittiness by reference to someone else's polytheism is expressing a gripe that requires their monotheism, whereas the same monotheist laying claim to positive outcomes has the polytheists ability to produce those same outcomes to contend with. In this, polytheism is intrinscally more inclusive than monotheism, and while there is a range of nasty and nice things shared between them, there is a range of shitty things that is solely possessed by the zealous monotheist.
Or, you know, the short version is "a history of the world since the assumption of monotheism", lol. We kindof went off the rails in the transition from monolatry to where we are now as a product of fanatics doing what fanatics will invariably do. In our defence, and echoing my previous statements, it's not as if there aren't powerful motivators compelling the respective monolatristic camps into the actions we've seen.
So any dogmatic social structure is inherently divisive and destructive by the exclusivity of it's dogma? Well I believe power does corrupt so I would tend to agree with that. That's why I actually believe with part of Brian's point that a solution should be based in the individual (not societal structure) as that is where the impetus of morality, responsibility and judgement are rooted.
(March 19, 2019 at 2:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm)tackattack Wrote: I'm not trying to be pedantic, it was the "royal" he.
So using your own words we can agree that:
1. People act on their beliefs
2. People's beliefs are informed by their "experiences".
3. We observe humans doing good/bad.
So how do you inject cause into this formula? How do you relate Religion into the equation?
1. People act on their beliefs. I agree. Still does not make their beliefs fact. It merely means they believe it.
2. People's beliefs are informed by their "experiences". BUT AGAIN see my prior posts. A dog can have a very REAL experience of barking at their reflection in the mirror and still not realize that they are really barking at themselves. Tell a kid at a Halloween party that the covered bowl of olives are human eyeballs, odds are they will believe you if young and gullible enough.
3. We observe humans doing good/bad. Yes, and we observe storms bring rain and rainbows, and also tornados and hurricanes. But you don't assign storms to Thor do you?
I don't see cause as supernatural. I simply see nature as a collection of events that lead to an outcome without a super cognition causing it. I don't see humans caused by a super cognition anymore than one should claim that cockroaches pray to a cockroach god.
I see religion as nothing more than a superstitious attempt to explain nature.
I do not assign storms to Thor. I see cause as a natural mechanism similarly. I don't attribute the cause of good or evil in people as entirely supernatural either. If a person has a belief that is good stemming from their religious experience and acts to the good on that isn't that religion causing good?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
March 19, 2019 at 3:48 pm (This post was last modified: March 19, 2019 at 3:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-For Brian
In a sense, sure, the virtue claims of a given subset change with respect to their sociopolitical position.
(March 19, 2019 at 3:47 pm)tackattack Wrote: So any dogmatic social structure is inherently divisive and destructive by the exclusivity of it's dogma? Well I believe power does corrupt so I would tend to agree with that. That's why I actually believe with part of Brian's point that a solution should be based in the individual (not societal structure) as that is where the impetus of morality, responsibility and judgement are rooted.
It's not really an issue of power corrupting something. The thing in question is fundamentally rotten, it's not as if, if it were weak, it wouldn't be..it just wouldn't be able to express that rottenness.
Jainism, to continue using it as the example, is as rotten as it ever was...when it was in power the circumstances required to express that existed, presently they don't.....but here's to hoping they get a chance to be the best version of their worst selves again!...(or would it be the worst version of their best selves...?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(March 19, 2019 at 3:48 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: -For Brian
In a sense, sure, the virtue claims of a given subset change with respect to their sociopolitical position.
(March 19, 2019 at 3:47 pm)tackattack Wrote: So any dogmatic social structure is inherently divisive and destructive by the exclusivity of it's dogma? Well I believe power does corrupt so I would tend to agree with that. That's why I actually believe with part of Brian's point that a solution should be based in the individual (not societal structure) as that is where the impetus of morality, responsibility and judgement are rooted.
It's not really an issue of power corrupting something. The thing in question is fundamentally rotten, it's not as if, if it were weak, it wouldn't be..it just wouldn't be able to express that rottenness.
Jainism, to continue using it as the example, is as rotten as it ever was...when it was in power the circumstances required to express that existed, presently they don't.....but here's to hoping they get a chance to be the best version of their worst selves again!...(or would it be the worst version of their best selves...?)
Haven't heard much about the Jains, except that they tend to carry the doctrine of 'ahimsa' to absurd levels.
Could you give me a run down on how they are rotten, or perhaps point me in a direction?
It's not about them, people are people. The religion has all of the problems of it's various components and has produced exactly the same things that any other religion would.
Unfamiliarity with it's tenets and history, combined with the less than stellar track record of other more recognizable faiths leaves people with the mistaken impression that it's a better or different sort of religion than others.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(March 20, 2019 at 8:16 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: It's not about them, people are people. The religion has all of the problems of it's various components and has produced exactly the same things that any other religion would.
Unfamiliarity with it's tenets and history, combined with the less than stellar track record of other more recognizable faiths leaves people with the mistaken impression that it's a better or different sort of religion than others.
This, right here.^^^^^^^^^
In terms of knowing that humans have always been capable of both cruelty and compassion and will always be, in the scope of our entire species existence and our future, one cannot and should not get stuck on short term focus.
Power shifts over time and so do social norms what is now, may not be in the future. There is no given peace in the world, there are only humans capable of it when they want to. Labels do not have any magic power to make the holder of that position to only do good.
There are no perfect religions, because there are no perfect humans. Humans are people, and our evolution will not magically create 100% worldwide peace. We are capable as a species though, to do more to work to a less violent world by accepting more that we are not a separate species.
So if the problem is systemic in the species, why rail against one group (religious)? If some people feel being religious helps them be better people or some people see religion as a more objective moral authority than society, doesn't that mean it makes a positive difference (whether entirely peaceful or not)?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
March 20, 2019 at 11:16 am (This post was last modified: March 20, 2019 at 11:32 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Some things act as force multipliers for our worst impulses. Just as before, while there's a wide range of nasty things that both the religious and non religious share, there are nasty things unique to the religious just as there are nasty things unique to specific religions and specific forms of religion.
Note, though, that you went ahead and said "but mom, timmy hit him too!"
Some people feel many things, that doesn;t mean that their feels are an accurate representation of reality, so..no...feeling like something helps doesn't actually make a thing a force for good.
I'm told that heroin feels great. The objective moral authority of religion tends to be something decidedly non-objective. I don't actually concern myself much with violence in some non-specified form, so I'd be the wrong guy to ask. I think that a measured application of violence can be a force for good. I don't long for a world where everyone sings kumbayah so much as a world where shitty people are more terrified of the good ones than the good ones are of them. My only comments on thus notion of "religions of peace" is that there just isn't any such thing. There has never been a religion that can't be leveraged in equal measure to justify violence. That's more a feature than a bug...the violent ones aren't getting it wrong, we're engaging in escapism by imagining such a thing in the first place.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
March 22, 2019 at 4:45 am (This post was last modified: March 22, 2019 at 4:47 am by bennyboy.)
(March 17, 2019 at 9:24 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(March 17, 2019 at 9:06 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Not all Buddhists are peaceful, but I would say that it's a particularly peaceful religion.
Seems that far to many are not getting it.
There is a HUGE difference between "seemingly peaceful" now, and peaceful in the past and peaceful forever. There is also geography and majority vs minority going on in human history, and since nothing ever stays the same, my point is it still amounts to human behavior not labels.
There is no corner of the globe that has been violence free, ever. Study enough of human history, and that becomes obvious. I cant say this enough, there is not one nation that does not have hospitals and prisons.
Give any sect of any population enough power, they still have the potential to become what they claim to have fought to defeat.
That's intrinsic to bald apes, in particular male ones. Violence can be found in secular or formally atheist societies, as well-- bald apes are perfectly happy to leverage whatever memes are in the spotlight to turn each other to fight, in order to gain personal advantage or to vent feelings of offense. Somewhere, the following words have certainly been uttered just before a mortal beating: "What the fuck did you just say about GHANDI?!?!?!" "What the fuck did you just say about PUPPIES!?!?!?" "What the fuck did you just say about my COOKING!?!?!?!"
