(March 15, 2015 at 7:00 pm)JuliaL Wrote: Thank you for a very interesting and educational explanation of the Ukrainian situation.
I have saved your post for reference and re-reading.
Your discussion about the various exchanges of lands and economic and political pressures in the Ukraine area which led to the current disunity was enlightening. I was somewhat informed about the importance of the Crimea to Russia's navy, but I had no real understanding of how the Ukraine came to look like it does: thrown together.
From any view; local or global, the situation looks like a mess. Best wishes for the least destructive resolution.

Thank you for taking interest and not renouncing my opinion right away.

Ukraine's fate is basically typical for a territory that has always been between major imperial states such as Polish-Lithunian Commonwealth, Russian Empire and Austro-Hungaria, each of them having different cultures and religion (yeah, it seems that there isn't a conflict without religion taking part in some way). But everything is worsened by this fact that for hundreds of years modern Ukraine had basically been a set of culturaly rather separate territories. And by the fact that Kiev is such a historically-important city for the Slavs in general. I advise you to look into Kiev's history to see how important this city actually was in the past. No wonder modern ukranian nationalists have developed imperial ambitions.

Speaking of the nationalists, during the Crimea happenings but before the breakout of a civil war in Donbass and Lugansk the situation escalated so much that said nazis openly threatened and even physically attacked civillians in Eastern regions. 70 people who came to a meeting against the course of the new Ukrainian govt were burnt down in Odessa. And in Crimea they were major clashes and violence ignited by the nationalists to instill fear into civillians who supported the secession from Ukraine.

Then there's also a religious aspect. While Eastern and Central Ukraine are mostly Orthodox Christian, Western regions are mostly Catholic. And historically there has been a bitter hatred between the Orthodox and Catholics. During the times of troubles (which were not so seldom in terms of History) these tensions easily escalated to physical violence. These tensions are far from gone.

Speaking of how general population perceives the conflict, of course it's a tragedy for both sides. As I've mentioned there are heavy interconnections between Russia and Ukraine and this conflict sometimes literally destroys families, friendships, collectives on both sides. This conflict is making wounds that aren't going to heal fast. I'd say the consequences are probably going to drag on for some hundreds of years. I have to point out one thing here. Just don't take it as if I hate people in the US. But I certainly do not approve of what the US government apparently tries to do here. On both sides of this conflict there's a common understanding that in some way the US are behind the coup and try to interfere sometimes un-diplomatically. Some view it strictly positive but the majority of interested people (and I'm not talking of right-wingers who naturally oppose the US or those who are basically ignorant of this topic) view it as more or less negative and some even blame the US for trying to ignite a European-scale war here. Even some of the liberals who generally disregard such ideas as the ruling partie's propaganda now more or less argee on this. It's NATO's recent wars in Jugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, the Syrian conflict and Arab Spring events as a whole that add considerably to this negative image. And this foreign factor adds up sufficiently to the overall tension. The situation is now percieved sometimes as a consequence of NATO's apparent effort to expand to the East or some global conflict of economic intersts induced by the US.

(March 9, 2014 at 2:40 pm)Mr. Moncrieff Wrote: Russia has no right to the Ukraine though.

Civil war does.

Sovereignty is subject to to foreign invasion, not domestic instability.

Russia has the right of security and intimate interest.

This is the right which United States reserves implicitly to itself for all occasions, and would like to deny to most not in its circle of alliances for most occasions.

Speaking of the International Law and it's place within this conflict. The idea of International Law itself is of course noble and important but the History shows that it's basically uselsess when it comes to real conflicts or clashes of economical or political interests. Appeals to International Law are effectively nothing more than a way to say "No, You!" on a global scale. They can equally be used to try and whitewash every act possible. Just look at all the recent Middle-eastern wars than the US and NATO made ignoring said Laws and the UN. No surprise Russia wasn't going to loose time and let things in Crimea go hot by waiting untill the UN desides what to do. And by the way there was actually a referendum on whether Crimea stays with Ukraine and wheter it stays as a completely independant state or joins Russia. Some may say that the results were biased. I'm not going to repeat what I've told above. But consider the fact that in real life politics the opponents almost never accept defeat so it's natural that the other side disregarded the results as biased (Remember Kosovo). And since the global politics is a harsh game where there are no friends and everyone tries to maximize their own profit (in every sence) it's no surprise that even if all the procedures would have been followed Russia wouldn't have been allowed to have this territory. Which would've meant a start of a civil war there.

And in no way Russia profits of off a civil war right nest to it's border, especially in such a strategically-important region as Crimea. In fact this war that broke out in Eastern Ukraine brings nothing but damage not only to the society but to the economy, too. There has been a great deal of Russian-owned businesses (such as factories) there that are now literary destroyed. Bear in mind that apart from the Ukrainian govt, Lugansk, Dombass, Russia and the US there's also another side: Ukrainian oligarchs who also had some property in the East and who were not content with foreigners (not only Russians but Hindus, Chinese and Europeans, too) buying assets in the East, making said assets more profitable by investing a lot and thus driving them out of business.

(March 9, 2014 at 2:49 pm)SeanBean Wrote:

(March 9, 2014 at 2:40 pm)Mr. Moncrieff Wrote: Russia has no right to the Ukraine though.

As if rights mean anything?

No shit. Rights are the bed-time stories we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night.

International law is a tool which hopefully we can use to beat our enemies over the heads with, but most certainly not a tool which should be allowed to limit our own options.

The only problem is other have reciprocal, not identical, views of the international law as we do.

I have to admit that apparently I've been horribly wrong. Several years have passed and Russia is basically at war with Ukraine and the damage is unfathomable. As for Crimea, doesn't seem their lives got much better in the process at all.

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I have to add that Russia is currently so much into imperial ambitions it's scary. And Religion plays a major role in all this.

A non-binding UN resolution say "Crimea is a part of Ukraine and its annexation by Russia Federation is illegal".
100 states voted for "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262" , 11 against it , 58 abstained , 24 weren't present for the vote.


Infos on Wikipedia about this resolution : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat...ion_68/262
Text of this resolution in English : https://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc...RES/68/262
The same in Arabic : https://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc...262&Lang=A
The same in French : https://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc...262&Lang=F
The same in Standard Mandarin Chinese : https://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc...262&Lang=C

The same in Russian : https://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc...262&Lang=R
The same in Spanish : https://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc...262&Lang=S

I consider than statute of Crimea is a matter between Ukraine and Russia Federation. 
I don't consider I have the right to say if this is an Ukrainian territory or a Russian one as a French citizen (I have only one citizenship) and an ethnic French not involved directly or indirectly in this territorial dispute.
Ukraine have the support of the majority of states in the so-called International community in this territorial dispute but Russia Federation haven't it even if some actors of International community support it (Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela , Islamic Republic of Afghanistan , Republic of Belarus and some others). 



Recognitions of Ukrainian sovereignty on Crimea : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_..._integrity
Recognitions of Russian sovereignty on Crimea : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_..._on_Crimea
Neutral states : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_..._positions

(March 30, 2019 at 9:26 am)Smaug Wrote: I have to admit that apparently I've been horribly wrong. Several years have passed and Russia is basically at war with Ukraine and the damage is unfathomable. As for Crimea, doesn't seem their lives got much better in the process at all.

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I have to add that Russia is currently so much into imperial ambitions it's scary. And Religion plays a major role in all this.

No, it was obvious from the start that Russia was going to try and exterminate the native population of Crimea. They flooded the country with Russian army personnel to be the only voters in the "referendum on reunification" and decided to kill off the actual inhabitants.

For all your talk four years ago about the west not understanding Russia, it turns out it was you not us who didn't understand your country.

(March 30, 2019 at 9:26 am)Smaug Wrote: I have to admit that apparently I've been horribly wrong. Several years have passed and Russia is basically at war with Ukraine and the damage is unfathomable. As for Crimea, doesn't seem their lives got much better in the process at all.
 

Intellectual honesty and integrity doesn't happen much around here.