(April 13, 2019 at 4:16 pm)LastPoet Wrote: While your compassion might bring a tear to my eyes, I simply do not have the time nor patience for this sort of sensibilities. Had I been so weak to suicide over an internet comment, it might be a recursive effect. I have contemplated suicide before and none for the weak minded foolishness of an internet insult. It usually runs deeper than that.

You're right, of course. The internet is the wild wild west, and anyone who's going to be pushed over the edge from internet comments was already pretty damned close to that edge. There's nobody on the internet for more than a day who doesn't understand that that's what the internet is. And yet. . . I suspect if you look at the computers of almost all modern suicide cases, you'll find that the straw that broke the camel's back came through that medium.

Even in the most hostile exchanges, when a debating opponent really starts raging at me or getting deeply personal, I still try not to. Hysterical ALL-CAPS, insulting memes, unbridled cursing and insult-- it's not a good look, and there's just no value in doing it. There is, on the other hand, value in not doing it.

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(April 13, 2019 at 11:49 am)Shell B Wrote:

(April 12, 2019 at 10:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I still very much want to know in what way Yonadav was trans, and if this informed his views on women in some way.

I have no idea why it would even matter, but he claimed he was born male, transitioned to female, lived as a female and then began living as a male again, still happy with his female parts. Now you know.

I really wish he'd respond-- because it seems to me infinitely likely that in his case, the anti-woman positions he's expressed are almost surely connected to that history.  Maybe if we can have an embargo on insults for a couple days, we could learn what it's like to go through all of that.

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(April 13, 2019 at 7:05 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 12, 2019 at 11:42 pm)bennyboy Wrote: For example, if Yonadav is really post-op MTF trans, and knowing the stats about suicide for that group of people, is it really necessary to go that far with your language?  

It's the very misogyny and transphobia that Yonadav comes out with that is a significant cause of the high rates of suicide among trans people. I think he's internalised it and is spreading it to gain some form of acceptance rather than fighting back. If so it's tragic.

In my opinion, this is one of the harms caused by the PC movement.  With all due respect to the struggle of trans people, I think that very much of it is psychological dysphoria.  The "I'm okay, you're okay" BS is likely enabling people to embark on a path of self-harm instead of getting help.

(April 13, 2019 at 5:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(April 13, 2019 at 4:16 pm)LastPoet Wrote: While your compassion might bring a tear to my eyes, I simply do not have the time nor patience for this sort of sensibilities. Had I been so weak to suicide over an internet comment, it might be a recursive effect. I have contemplated suicide before and none for the weak minded foolishness of an internet insult. It usually runs deeper than that.

You're right, of course.  The internet is the wild wild west, and anyone who's going to be pushed over the edge from internet comments was already pretty damned close to that edge.  There's nobody on the internet for more than a day who doesn't understand that that's what the internet is.  And yet. . . I suspect if you look at the computers of almost all modern suicide cases, you'll find that the straw that broke the camel's back came through that medium.

Even in the most hostile exchanges, when a debating opponent really starts raging at me or getting deeply personal, I still try not to.  Hysterical ALL-CAPS, insulting memes, unbridled cursing and insult-- it's not a good look, and there's just no value in doing it.  There is, on the other hand, value in not doing it.

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(April 13, 2019 at 11:49 am)Shell B Wrote: I have no idea why it would even matter, but he claimed he was born male, transitioned to female, lived as a female and then began living as a male again, still happy with his female parts. Now you know.

I really wish he'd respond-- because it seems to me infinitely likely that in his case, the anti-woman positions he's expressed are almost surely connected to that history.  Maybe if we can have an embargo on insults for a couple days, we could learn what it's like to go through all of that.

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(April 13, 2019 at 7:05 am)Mathilda Wrote: It's the very misogyny and transphobia that Yonadav comes out with that is a significant cause of the high rates of suicide among trans people. I think he's internalised it and is spreading it to gain some form of acceptance rather than fighting back. If so it's tragic.

In my opinion, this is one of the harms caused by the PC movement.  With all due respect to the struggle of trans people, I think that very much of it is psychological dysphoria.  The "I'm okay, you're okay" BS is likely enabling people to embark on a path of self-harm instead of getting help.

Advice on how to interact with people from someone who throws televisions along with his hissy fits.

There are cooler heads around here to take advice from.

It's important to keep in mind that American and British culture, like many societies, are extremely conformist. Any difference from societal norms will be punished, not from above by authority, but by members of the group who take it on themselves to act as enforcers.

When the differing person is driven out of the group, that is counted as a success. If that involves suicide, this is seen as an acceptable outcome, and the dead person is blamed, since he or she was at fault for not conforming to group norms in the first place.

(April 13, 2019 at 1:39 pm)adey67 Wrote:

(April 13, 2019 at 12:40 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Well, I dunno what happened at TTA or AD with him, didn't catch that. Can you point me to the place of many laughs?

But he wasn't banned here. He went off on his own. Good riddance IMHO. One less self entitled idiot around. I also agree that #4 is the better way.

It was pretty much the same thing as here on AF, with him generally acting like a misogynistic ass hat, I can't remember if he got banned from TTA or AD he may well have, Mathilda would know so maybe she might chime in to provide clarification, my memory is terrible I'm afraid.

It was suicide by cop with him on AD. If you deliberately go against what the mods explicitely tell you what you cannot do then you leave them no choice but to act because if they give in then they either lose authority and control of the forum or get accused of being inconsistent, which has much the same effect.

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(April 13, 2019 at 5:13 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(April 13, 2019 at 7:05 am)Mathilda Wrote: It's the very misogyny and transphobia that Yonadav comes out with that is a significant cause of the high rates of suicide among trans people. I think he's internalised it and is spreading it to gain some form of acceptance rather than fighting back. If so it's tragic.

In my opinion, this is one of the harms caused by the PC movement.  With all due respect to the struggle of trans people, I think that very much of it is psychological dysphoria.  The "I'm okay, you're okay" BS is likely enabling people to embark on a path of self-harm instead of getting help.

With all due respect? You know nothing about the struggle of trans people and you dehumanise their existence by refusing to see beyond their medical history or what they look like all the while complaining about being dehumanised yourself. And then you white knight a misogynist and transphobe because he claims to be transssexual. I'd accuse you of being a hypocrite but I suspect that you are actually willfully ignorant.

(April 13, 2019 at 5:38 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Advice on how to interact with people from someone who throws televisions along with his hissy fits.

There are cooler heads around here to take advice from.

Mhhhmmhhh. That was 10 years ago, and I learned from it.

So. . . are you in favor of calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature" or "it" online? If so, I think you're on the wrong side of right.

He could've just told us about that experience without being a dick. What's the point of an embargo now? That should've been his default since he joined our community. It wasn't, and so people returned the favor. Boohoo.

(April 13, 2019 at 7:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(April 13, 2019 at 5:38 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Advice on how to interact with people from someone who throws televisions along with his hissy fits.

There are cooler heads around here to take advice from.

Mhhhmmhhh. That was 10 years ago, and I learned from it.

So. . . are you in favor of calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature" or "it" online? If so, I think you're on the wrong side of right.

Bennyboy please stop pretending to care about trans people. Your post above suggesting that the PC crowd are stopping trans people curing themselves with therapy leading them to self harm, presumably you mean by transitioning, shows you do not. You clearly think of trans women as men and that is the gravest insult you can give them. So cut it out and just be honest.

(April 13, 2019 at 6:49 pm)Mathilda Wrote: With all due respect? You know nothing about the struggle of trans people and you dehumanise their existence by refusing to see beyond their medical history or what they look like all the while complaining about being dehumanised yourself. And then you white knight a misogynist and transphobe because he claims to be transssexual. I'd accuse you of being a hypocrite but I suspect that you are actually willfully ignorant.

Have I ever attempted to dehumanize anyone, ever? Did I refuse to see someone beyond their medical history or what they look like? I don't think that happened.

Let's be crystal clear, here. I think 100% of the time-- 100%, mind you-- it's best to express restraint when it comes to belittling others. The internet just doesn't have to be that place-- it takes complicity from all those who hide behind their anonymity to express the worst side of themselves to make it what it is, but I think we can choose not to do that.

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(April 13, 2019 at 7:14 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(April 13, 2019 at 7:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Mhhhmmhhh.  That was 10 years ago, and I learned from it.

So. . . are you in favor of calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature" or "it" online?  If so, I think you're on the wrong side of right.

Bennyboy please stop pretending to care about trans people. Your post above suggesting that the PC crowd are stopping trans people curing themselves with therapy leading them to self harm, presumably you mean by transitioning, shows you do not. You clearly think of trans women as men and that is the gravest insult you can give them. So cut it out and just be honest.

It's not right to put words in my mouth, and then declare me dishonest if I don't accept them as my own.

It's a particularly strange context-- I'm advocating for moderation of insulting language, because we don't know who's behind the posts we are reading, and what harm over-the-top language might be doing to someone.  I'm advocating for especial care in demeaning trans people, because I know about the psychological problems associated with gender dysphoria. People aren't just born trans in the way that they're black or white, male or female-- the troubles run deeper than that-- and I don't think you will disagree with that, will you?

Whatever you think about my motivations or my sincerity, can we not agree that calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature," are things we can live without?  I'll happily be called a hypocrite a million times over, if anyone at all will agree that maybe we shouldn't use internet forums as dumping grounds for the worst in us.

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(April 13, 2019 at 7:08 pm)Shell B Wrote: He could've just told us about that experience without being a dick. What's the point of an embargo now? That should've been his default since he joined our community. It wasn't, and so people returned the favor. Boohoo.

"Should" implies a lot of philosophical ideas about the agency of free will.  It seems likely to me that Yonadav is compelled to behave that way-- and if we can't get past the obvious chip-on-the-shoulder and ask him about his background and motivations, we'll never get to understand how people arrive at that place. For all we know, he's been through mountains of shit, and online forums are the only place where he can express the anger he feels.

I exchanged posts with Yonadav for years at Amazon, as well as at TTA and AD. He had the bad habit of telling other people what their "real motivations" were and what they were "really thinking." Although his mind-reading was mostly inaccurate (as people tried to point out again and again), he never learned humility toward others and their opinions.

I've gone back and forth about him in my own mind for years, since he does have some interesting perspectives.

(April 13, 2019 at 7:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(April 13, 2019 at 5:38 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Advice on how to interact with people from someone who throws televisions along with his hissy fits.

There are cooler heads around here to take advice from.

Mhhhmmhhh.  That was 10 years ago, and I learned from it.

So. . . are you in favor of calling people pieces of shit, or calling trans people "creature" or "it" online?  If so, I think you're on the wrong side of right.

Ten years ago yet you post about how aggression (rage) in men should be accepted.

You keep trying to rewrite your story...now you are full of acceptance and love...just all sweetness and light because you didn't get the backing you thought you would get on your men's rage is okay thing.

You didn't learn shit.  Don't act like you are the one who knows best how to handle emotions.  

You don't realize that the corner you are painting yourself into gets smaller and smaller the more you reveal.  

I doubt many here believe you are concerned that Yon is out their considering opening a vein.