I think of pantheism as a halfway house between theism and atheism.  It's for people who are still trying to work out some system of apologetics for a God-concept because they still think they need to worship something.  Since the whole universe has all power, by definition, then you are already part way there!  Never mind that when people believe in God, they are thinking of a conscious and willful being with superpowers. It's also a kind of power trip, as Aegon pointed out.  You can be God too!  Finally, pantheism assumes some kind of unity in the universe which is not apparent.  Instead, what we find are discrete objects crashing into each other or competing with each other.  You can't possibly take all sides.  "To protect the fox is to harm the rabbits."

According to Wikipedia:

"Pantheism is the belief that reality is identical with divinity, or that all-things compose an all-encompassing, immanent god. Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal anthropomorphic god and instead characterizes a broad range of doctrines differing in forms of relationships between reality and divinity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

As for me, I haven't seen anything yet which is worthy of worship, although some people sure try to make such things.  To worship anything undermines the whole skeptical project in my mind.  The reality seems to be that there are pluses and minuses to everything.  Nothing is worthy of worship, so it's a mistake to worship anything. This perspective is consistent with atheism in my opinion.

(May 1, 2019 at 11:42 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: But what about free will?

To me, pantheism only makes sense when understood in the context of a deterministic universe. That means, as Spinoza thought, free will is a myth. Every action in the universe is determined by a prior cause. Since it is metaphysics, it is unlikely if we will ever resolve the issue of whether or not we have free will, but I think it's quite plausible that we don't.

Taking this into account, that means that the entire universe has as much free will/autonomy as any of us. (NONE.) And considering all the power the universe contains, meh, why not call it God?

The standard deterministic argument conflates material causes with reasons.  If we act in certain ways because of reasons, we have free will.  Since the universe doesn't have consciousness and willfulness, it doesn't qualify as a God from my point of view.

(May 3, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: I think of pantheism as a halfway house between theism and atheism.  It's for people who are still trying to work out some system of apologetics for a God-concept because they still think they need to worship something.  Since the whole universe has all power, by definition, then you are already part way there!  Never mind that when people think of God, they think of a conscious and willful being with superpowers. It's also a kind of power trip, as Aegon pointed out.  You can be God too!  Finally, pantheism assumes some kind of unity in the universe which is not apparent.  Instead, what we find are discrete objects crashing into each other or competing with each other.  You can't possibly take all sides.  "To protect the fox is to harm the rabbits."

According to Wikipedia:

"Pantheism is the belief that reality is identical with divinity, or that all-things compose an all-encompassing, immanent god. Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal anthropomorphic god and instead characterizes a broad range of doctrines differing in forms of relationships between reality and divinity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

As for me, I haven't seen anything yet which is worthy of worship, although some people sure try to make such things.  To worship anything undermines the whole skeptical project in my mind.  The reality seems to be that there are pluses and minuses to everything.  Nothing is worthy of worship, so it's a mistake to worship anything. This perspective is consistent with atheism in my opinion.

Can you define worship for me? A classic argument is that we all worship something, or multiple things. . If not God, then money. If not money, then nature. If not nature, then ... etc etc

(May 3, 2019 at 5:20 pm)Aegon Wrote: Can you define worship for me? A classic argument is that we all worship something, or multiple things. . If not God, then money. If not money, then nature. If not nature, then ... etc etc

Worship is usually considered the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration.

To worship anything, it seems to me, you have to believe it has no faults, that it is perfect. I don't know of anyone, anything, or any idea with is beyond criticism in whatever ways. That goes for this universe too.

This is not to say some people don't consider money, for instance, as an end in itself, but I think they are obviously mistaken. People do indeed worship all sorts of things because of their unexamined assumptions.

The classic argument that we all worship something is an unexamined assumption, which comes about as the result of worshiping something

(May 3, 2019 at 5:29 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote:

(May 1, 2019 at 11:42 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Can you define worship for me? A classic argument is that we all worship something, or multiple things. . If not God, then money. If not money, then nature. If not nature, then ... etc etc

Worship is usually considered the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration.

To worship anything, it seems to me, you have to believe it has no faults, that it is perfect. I don't know of anyone, anything, or any idea with is beyond criticism in whatever ways. That goes for this universe too.

This is not to say some people don't consider money, for instance, as an end in itself, but I think they are obviously mistaken. People do indeed worship all sorts of things because of their unexamined assumptions.

The classic argument that we all worship something is an unexamined assumption, which comes about as the result of worshiping something

I don’t see anyone in your definition of worship that it only applies to things seen by the worshipper as perfect.

Couldn’t we say you have reverence and adoration for truth?

(May 3, 2019 at 5:37 pm)Acrobat Wrote: I don’t see anyone in your definition of worship that it only applies to things seen by the worshipper as perfect.

Couldn’t we say you have reverence and adoration for truth?

People can certainly have reverence and adoration for truth, but that's idealized truth. Real truth can be rather mundane and even ugly, as in "My mother died painfully of cancer."

(May 3, 2019 at 7:43 am)Acrobat Wrote: This starts with a very trivial understanding of the religious.

Since we're going by the google definition for numinous, and that definition contains the word religious, perhaps we ought to agree on a definition of "religious." I propose we go with William James's definition which he offers in The Varieties of Religious Experience.

James Wrote:THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE.

Now we are left with one more problem word: divine. I'll let James settle this one too.

James Wrote:We escape much controversial matter by this arbitrary definition of our
field. But, still, a chance of controversy comes up over the word “divine,”
if we take the definition in too narrow a sense. There are systems of
thought which the world usually calls religious, and yet which do not
positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course,
the Buddha himself stands in place of a God; but in strictness the
Buddhistic system is atheistic. Modern transcendental idealism,
Emersonianism, for instance, also seems to let God evaporate into
abstract Ideality. Not a deity in concreto, not a superhuman person, but
the immanent divinity in things, the essentially spiritual structure of the
universe, is the object of the transcendentalist cult.

If this definition doesn't work for you, let me know. But this is the kind of "deep" definition of divinity/numinosity I've been working with so far. So if you accept it, half our work is done, and we can get into the meat of the argument.

Quote:The terms supernatural and natural have no clear meaning, even less so hundred of years ago, and most theists have little need to make such distinctions, so they remain relatively agnostic on the terms. No corresponding terms for supernatural nor natural, exists in the bible.

Correct. You and I say "problem," but the apologist says "solution." The ambiguity of natural/supernatural has allowed them to bob and weave around direct arguments for centuries.

Since it's an issue, why don't we stick with material/immaterial? I may use the words natural/naturalistic etc. out of habit, but what I mean when I say this is "in accordance with materialism and subject to the laws of nature." Does that work? It worked for Plato and Aristotle. And I think it can work for us.

Quote:Secondly if you paid attention even to the most basic apologetics, such as WLCs, it’s never that what’s good is declarations of a divine being, but rather good is part of it’s very nature. To be good is to partake in the life of God, rather than the hallow following of some set of rules.

I've watched plenty of WLC (and not just him getting owned by Hitchens), I've even read a one of his essays on the Kalam argument.

Question: If goodness is synonymous with the nature of God, rather than something we discern with the power of our reasoning, how come the Bible doesn't say:

Quote:And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was [of his own nature], and he separated the light from the darkness.

Quote:The underly question to atheists is not how can they have any sense of right and wrong while not believing in God, but how can they account for existence of objective morality, absent of teleological assumptions? Without implying some sort of created, or purposeful order.

I'd LOVE to answer this question, but not in this thread. Short answer: We figure it out with logic and reasoning! You see, we have minds that can solve problems. Unless we make a mistake somewhere along the way, we can work out the correct answer to a math problem, we can figure out how to build a bridge that withstands a heavy burden, we can formulate laws that govern thermodynamics. We can do the same in ethics without the help of a deity or referring to a purposeful order.

If you wanna discuss it more create a thread... or I will (let me know). It's actually been a while since I've discussed moral realism... though (man!) I've logged some hours here!

Quote:If we take out the terms supernatural and natural, and just speak of reality itself, some the semantic problems can be reduced here. Perhaps using the term reality instead of the world. For theist God and reality aren’t separate things, God is very much a part of this reality, as an author is to its novel. And we as it’s readers only understand God by the nature of the novel itself, and nothing more.

But IS God reality itself? Certain Hindus think so-- maybe pantheists, too. But Christians (and most other theists) refer to God as a figure -with personhood- who exists WITHIN reality, just like we do. As in, we are just as real as God. The author/book analogy makes it sound like God is real and we -and the world- are fictitious.

---

(May 3, 2019 at 5:29 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote:

(May 1, 2019 at 11:42 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Can you define worship for me? A classic argument is that we all worship something, or multiple things. . If not God, then money. If not money, then nature. If not nature, then ... etc etc

Worship is usually considered the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration.

To worship anything, it seems to me, you have to believe it has no faults, that it is perfect.  I don't know of anyone, anything, or any idea with is beyond criticism in whatever ways.  That goes for this universe too.

This is not to say some people don't consider money, for instance, as an end in itself, but I think they are obviously mistaken.  People do indeed worship all sorts of things because of their unexamined assumptions.

The classic argument that we all worship something is an unexamined assumption, which comes about as the result of worshiping something

I didn't write that.

---

(May 3, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: As for me, I haven't seen anything yet which is worthy of worship, although some people sure try to make such things.  To worship anything undermines the whole skeptical project in my mind.  The reality seems to be that there are pluses and minuses to everything.  Nothing is worthy of worship, so it's a mistake to worship anything.  This perspective is consistent with atheism in my opinion.

I disagree. Pantheism not necessarily entail worship. Though it conceivably could... But I imagine its prayers would not be mutterings done as one prostrates oneself before an alter. They would more resemble folk songs shouted into the night sky from around a campfire. And its baptisms wouldn't be solemn affairs that take place in a church. They would more resemble Thoreau's (many) submersions into Walden.

And I disagree that worship itself undermines skepticism. So long as one has an appropriate standard for obtaining beliefs (ie sufficient evidence or sufficient reason) skepticism is doing just fine. You could worship your neighbor's cat day and night for all I care, but if you don't accept something as true without sufficient evidence, you qualify as a skeptic in my book.

(May 3, 2019 at 6:05 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I didn't write that.

I fixed it.

(May 3, 2019 at 6:05 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(May 3, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: As for me, I haven't seen anything yet which is worthy of worship, although some people sure try to make such things.  To worship anything undermines the whole skeptical project in my mind.  The reality seems to be that there are pluses and minuses to everything.  Nothing is worthy of worship, so it's a mistake to worship anything.  This perspective is consistent with atheism in my opinion.

I disagree. Pantheism not necessarily entail worship.

And I disagree that worship itself undermines skepticism.

If pantheism doesn't entail worship of the divine in nature, it's an empty word in my opinion.

According to Google:

"pantheism (noun)
1. a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
2. worship that admits or tolerates all gods."

"God (noun)
1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity."

(May 3, 2019 at 4:49 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(May 3, 2019 at 3:17 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Entirely your own problem.  I'm only telling you what is a common fact of human experience.  You can either accept that, or launch some batshit argument.  Your call.

This is becoming quite the pattern for you.  You invariably spool up some "but how could you x without a god" question, and when presented with an answer, lose your shit.  How hard would it be, honestly, to just say "oh, guess I never thought of it that way"...eh?

Yes you’re telling me a common fact of human experience, one that I share, but this is not what’s meant by the experience of the numinous. This isn’t what Otto, Lewis, or Hitchens are describing, they’re not talking about gratitude or contentment in their personal lives, which is the thing you’re describing amounts too. As someone who experienced both, I can tell you we’re not talking about the same experience

You can only be telling me that none of what does it for me, does it for you.  Entirely your own problem. As I mentioned at the outset, I likely have these experiences more than the average god botherer, since I surround myself with the circumstances that produce them. In a wide range of situations that you don't feel the sense of the numinous, I do. Go ahead, though, and continue with that batshit argument, instead.

(May 3, 2019 at 6:53 pm)Thoreauvian Wrote: If pantheism doesn't entail worship of the divine in nature, it's an empty word in my opinion.

See my William James quotes above. Many concepts can go out the window when one considers what is essential to the religious experience. Worship is one of them.

What if Shiva suddenly descended from the skies and announced that he was real but then ordered everyone on the planet not to worship him. If they do, they suffer an eternity in Hindu hell. Then you'd have a bunch of people who believe that a god exists... but very few worshipping him. You see? It's possible...

Quote:According to Google:

"pantheism (noun)
1. a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
2. worship that admits or tolerates all gods."

But these are two different definitions of two different concepts. "A worship that admits all gods" doesn't describe what I'm talking about at all.

Quote:"God (noun)
1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity."

Well, sure. But a pantheist is one who rejects both of these and bestows the title "God" upon something more deserving. And something that's real.

(May 3, 2019 at 7:12 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: But a pantheist is one who rejects both of these and bestows the title "God" upon something more deserving. And something that's real.

I do not agree that a God can be something without consciousness and willfulness, deserving and real or otherwise. That's why I think pantheism is just as unreal as theism. There's no there there.