(December 4, 2019 at 4:40 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Pigeon...chess board...so much shitting.

That's unfair to pigeons.

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(December 4, 2019 at 8:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 4, 2019 at 7:41 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote:   

We're not there yet.

And I hate to keep coming back to this, but I'd really like him to give us an explanation of how something can be random and designed at the same time.

Boru

I have a great devils advocate pithy answer for this but don't want to give Jackie boy any ammo, watching him struggle is fun.

(December 4, 2019 at 2:35 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: So you claim to know the mind of God and that he intended to make perfect world and thus perfect DNA?

All we know about anyone's gods is what their followers have to say about them. They seem perfectly comfortable for the most part to declare what's on the minds of their various gods. The tri-Omni God is supposed to be perfect, it seems a contradiction for something perfect to create imperfection.

(December 4, 2019 at 2:35 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: Imperfections are explained away in the Bible.

I agree that the Bible attempts to explain away a perfect creator creating an imperfect world, I don't agree that its attempts are successful.

(December 4, 2019 at 2:35 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: Is the code of any OS perfect? No but guess what? It’s still a code.

It's both imperfect and not literally a code. I note that you don't address explanations of why it's not literally a code.

(December 4, 2019 at 2:35 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: It’s the sequence of nucleotides that is not random. Did the decoding aspect of the system (rna transport) evolve simultaneously as the formulation of nucleotide sequence? Coincidence?

It's bot not random and not arbitrary. To be a code, it has to be arbitrary. Other chemicals can't do the same job, because it's chemistry, not literal coding. How DNA evolved is unclear since it happened over 3 billion years ago and there's little evidence left; but what little we have suggests that RNA evolved first and was able to do both store and transmit protein formation catalyzation sequences; DNA was better at storage and evolved to take over that role.

(December 4, 2019 at 2:35 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: It’s 10+ against one here, do you really expect me to reply to each post?

You're not expected to respond to each post. Which posts you elect to respond to says a lot about you. I recommend that you choose to address the posts that are the most challenging to your position; which will also address other people's points and questions in the process. I recommend you ignore posts that are merely humorous or insulting.

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(December 4, 2019 at 4:54 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Early on, you said the sequence of nucleotides was 'arbitrary'. Now you're saying that it's 'not random'.

Can you resolve this?

Boru

I'll take a shot, as designer's advocate. Arbitrary isn't necessarily random, although it can be. I can arbitrarily designate that '#' will mean 'i' go#ng forward, but the appearance of '#' thereafter w#ll not be random. The cho#ce of symbols was arb#trary, but the use of them #s not.

The real problem with the claim that DNA is a code composed of arbitrary symbols (which a code necessarily is) is that nucleotide sequences are not arbitrary, they are chemically necessary to get the outcome they produce.

Paleophye, prove what?
You show me the laws of chemistry that dictate the sequence of DNA. It’s arbitrary in the fact that no physics of nature dictate it’s order the way say gravity shapes a planet or snowflakes get their 6 sided structure.
So explain the sequence that magically coincidentally forms useful proteins

The old "Muh huly buuk. I dunt no how so, god musta dun didit" assertion. The highest trump card there is.

It's ironic that you mention water Jack. You're asking about the laws of organic chemistry, heredity. Both the sequence and structure of dna are described by them. Briefly (very, very briefly) the double stranded helix is created when hydrophobic bases accumulate in the center of a poly-nucleotide structure which spirals to avoid contact in a tight space mostly full of water. The sequence is determined as hydrophilic phosphates and sugars react with those bases. This is governed by hydrogen bonding patterns, as are the resultant base pairs. Those pairs divide during meiosis, we bump uglies, and voila - a unique dna sequence.

It's not important that there actually are laws which govern the structure and sequence of dna, or even that you didn't realize that there where. What's important is that you imagined that there might not be, lol. In a clockwork universe created by an immensely intelligent designer....you imagined...that genetics wasn't reducible to the organic chemistry that facilitates and constrains it's operation.

That's some brain we've got, isn't it? Makes you wonder about it's creator. In fairness, we see the end product, us- and it's difficult for us to conceive of the underlying process being so simple and elegant. Tumblers in a lock, or..indeed, water flowing downhill. However, that's exactly what's happening..regardless of whether or not there are any gods.

Here's some background, if you find this sort of thing interesting. It goes through the people and processes that contributed to our current model, why others imagined that they would find it some particular way if they could ever look - and the success of the model based on those predictions when we did.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpag...atson-397/

Bringing us around to the next issue (and q)- since we now know that there are laws that determine the structure and sequence of dna...well..why this specific structure, that specific sequence? We can rule out all incompatible pairs or unsound structures - as they would not be present in living things on account of them not being capable of producing them. That would still (hypothetically) leave us with more that just the watson crick model, and definitely more than just our own home grown sequence (or even our carbon based status). We may find that life exceeds the boundaries we find here, but at least in this case of this earth, this environment, and this hereditary story as told by our dna - our model and our sequence was better suited to the conditions. Those unsuited, or less suitable, having been weeded out over billions of years and perhaps even actively suppressed by representatives of the well adapted form. We do know that it could have been different, we've recently come up with our own designer dna that contains twice as much information as we find in nature.

Some design, some designer.

(December 6, 2019 at 12:46 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: It's ironic that you mention water Jack.  You're asking about the laws of organic chemistry, heredity.  Both the sequence and structure of dna are described by them.  Briefly (very, very briefly) the double stranded helix is created when hydrophobic bases accumulate in the center of a poly-nucleotide structure which spirals to avoid contact in a tight space mostly full of water.  The sequence is determined as hydrophilic phosphates and sugars react with those bases.  This is governed by hydrogen bonding patterns, as are the resultant base pairs.  Those pairs divide during meiosis, we bump uglies, and voila - a unique dna sequence.

It's not important that there actually are laws which govern the structure and sequence of dna, or even that you didn't realize that there where.  What's important is that you imagined that there might not be, lol.  In a clockwork universe created by an immensely intelligent designer....you imagined...that genetics wasn't reducible to the organic chemistry that facilitates and constrains it's operation.

That's some brain we've got, isn't it?  Makes you wonder about it's creator.  In fairness, we see the end product, us- and it's difficult for us to conceive of the underlying process being so simple and elegant.  Tumblers in a lock, or..indeed, water flowing downhill.  However, that's exactly what's happening..regardless of whether or not there are any gods.

Here's some background, if you find this sort of thing interesting.  It goes through the people and processes that contributed to our current model, why others imagined that they would find it some particular way if they could ever look - and the success of the model based on those predictions when we did.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpag...atson-397/

Bringing us around to the next issue (and q)- since we now know that there are laws that determine the structure and sequence of dna...well..why this specific structure, that specific sequence?  We can rule out all incompatible pairs or unsound structures - as they would not be present in living things on account of them not being capable of producing them.  That would still (hypothetically) leave us with more that just the watson crick model, and definitely more than just our own home grown sequence (or even our carbon based status).  We may find that life exceeds the boundaries we find here, but at least in this case of this earth, this environment, and this hereditary story as told by our dna - our model and our sequence was better suited to the conditions.  Those unsuited, or less suitable, having been weeded out over billions of years and perhaps even actively suppressed by representatives of the well adapted form.

You would do better trying to teach algebra to a baked potato

(December 4, 2019 at 11:59 am)Simon Moon Wrote: DNA is not a code.

I blame scientists for giving creationists ammo for their claptrap when they started using the word 'code' META' fucking 'PHORICALLY to explain genetics to laypeople.

When is a code not a code?


DNA is not a code

Like with the Higg's boson being called the "god" particle, I'm guessing the "DNA is a code" bs came from scientifically illiterate journalists.

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(December 4, 2019 at 2:35 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: Imperfections are explained away in the Bible.

How does a perfect being create imperfection?

(December 5, 2019 at 7:08 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: Paleophye, prove what?
You show me the laws of chemistry that dictate the sequence of DNA. It’s arbitrary in the fact that no physics of nature dictate it’s order the way say gravity shapes a planet or snowflakes get their 6 sided structure.
So explain the sequence that magically coincidentally forms useful proteins

There's no law of chemistry that dictates the composition of any molecule. Nothing in the laws of chemistry dictate that H2O will be water. It is simply what we call those molecules that are H2O.  So I don't know why you think there would be  a law of chemistry dictating the sequence in a DNA molecule. And yet, all molecules abide by the laws of chemistry.

(December 6, 2019 at 9:48 am)polymath257 Wrote:

(December 5, 2019 at 7:08 pm)Yukon_Jack Wrote: Paleophye, prove what?
You show me the laws of chemistry that dictate the sequence of DNA. It’s arbitrary in the fact that no physics of nature dictate it’s order the way say gravity shapes a planet or snowflakes get their 6 sided structure.
So explain the sequence that magically coincidentally forms useful proteins

There's no law of chemistry that dictates the composition of any molecule. Nothing in the laws of chemistry dictate that H2O will be water. It is simply what we call those molecules that are H2O.  So I don't know why you think there would be  a law of chemistry dictating the sequence in a DNA molecule. And yet, all molecules abide by the laws of chemistry.

^Precisely this.  Physical laws don't dictate how the universe operates, they describe how the universe operates.  I'm sure that if the structure of DNA wasn't described by current chemical laws, there would be a mad scramble to figure it out.

Boru

Boru, you are missing the point, there ARE laws that dictate how and why Hydrogen bonds w oxygen to form water. No?
So what dictates the very sequence that are instructions that get decoded? Has anyone ever seen scrambled letters thrown only to land and form even a basic sentence?

Ps, if I am to ignore insults, how bout calling off the goons here? Although some posters are polite and is appreciated