(February 18, 2020 at 8:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: God is not human.
Lions tear people and maul them.
Snakes poison children.
The sun burns people alive. But we seem to find the excuse and pardon these non-human entities in doing so.

Why can't we do the same with God?

Okay, your god is an animalistic being. Dumb animal without consideration for the pain it causes to others. Thanks.

(February 18, 2020 at 8:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(February 18, 2020 at 6:48 pm)Chad32 Wrote: "it's similar to what serial killers make their victims live before they die"

And serial killers are horrible people. That's what you're comparing your god to?

God is not human.
Lions tear people and maul them.
Snakes poison children.
The sun burns people alive. But we seem to find the excuse and pardon these non-human entities in doing so.

Why can't we do the same with God?

Your god is supposed to be better than human, isn't he? Perfection, even? And as mere humans we should strive towards your god's perfection, shouldn't we?
Doesn't that mean we should become better torturers?

(February 18, 2020 at 8:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Torturing humans is very normal when the one inflicting the torture is not even human.

Nope. Now you claim that your god is sub-human.

(February 18, 2020 at 8:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Our problem is with humans torturing humans.

And that humans have a higher moral standard than your god.

(February 18, 2020 at 8:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(February 18, 2020 at 6:48 pm)Chad32 Wrote: "it's similar to what serial killers make their victims live before they die"

And serial killers are horrible people. That's what you're comparing your god to?

God is not human.
Lions tear people and maul them.
Snakes poison children.
The sun burns people alive. But we seem to find the excuse and pardon these non-human entities in doing so.

Why can't we do the same with God?

Torturing humans is very normal when the one inflicting the torture is not even human.
Our problem is with humans torturing humans.

So you're saying it's God's nature to torture, like it's a scorpion's nature to sting? Like a venomous wasp, God has no moral agency, you disturb God and God tortures you because that is just what God does.

One of the many problems with your comparison is that if we can't say God is evil when God tortures for the same reason that we can't say a bear is evil when it mauls someone; we also can't say God is good when God elevates a soul to heaven, just like we can't say a lion is good if it chases off a hyena that was about to attack us. Only a being with moral agency can be bad or good, when we call a dog a 'good boy', we aren't saying the dog knows the difference between good and evil and chooses good; we're saying the dog is obedient and affectionate and we like that.

(February 17, 2020 at 6:55 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(February 17, 2020 at 5:55 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: That sounds about right.  But that's still a far shout from 'eternal.'

Boru

That's why I suggested a fixed amount of time.

Nobody should justify what Hitler did. But lets say you gave 1,000 years for each of the 6 million Jews, and 50 million worldwide, no that would not be eternity, but after that finite time, nobody can claim someone like Hitler could or would learn their lesson. Even if one were not to torture Hitler in an "eternity" and gave him a fixed time, that still would not work because someone like that is irredeemable. 

All I was pointing out was that if there were a "hell" which there is not, Hitler would be one case one would be hard pressed not throw him in.

It's actually pretty hard to motivate yourself to torture. The people who do it professionally get rotated so that it doesn't scramble their shit. I think that you might find it alot easier than you think, even with hitler, to pass on torture.

(February 19, 2020 at 12:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 17, 2020 at 6:55 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: That's why I suggested a fixed amount of time.

Nobody should justify what Hitler did. But lets say you gave 1,000 years for each of the 6 million Jews, and 50 million worldwide, no that would not be eternity, but after that finite time, nobody can claim someone like Hitler could or would learn their lesson. Even if one were not to torture Hitler in an "eternity" and gave him a fixed time, that still would not work because someone like that is irredeemable. 

All I was pointing out was that if there were a "hell" which there is not, Hitler would be one case one would be hard pressed not throw him in.

I think you underestimate the transformative power of profound torture. One of the things that is unjust about an eternity of it is that it doesn't take that long for the subject of torture to truly believe what the torturer wants them to believe if that will get the torture to stop. I'd be a believer in seconds flat if I was burning, and it wouldn't take much longer (definitely not a thousand years) to get me to start torturing other people if that's what it took to make my own torture stop. It could literally change me into a different person. Hell, magic mushrooms could literally change me into a different person. Experience in general changes us. It's easy to be cruel when you're in charge and no one will stand up to you, it would be a bit harder if you were deposed and given a big dose of what you've been dishing out.

IMHO, you may have more insight into Hitler's intransigence than I do. But if he can stand thousands of years of horrific torture without learning not to do the things he's being tortured for, I think that counts as a superhuman attribute, truly invincible ignorance.

(February 19, 2020 at 12:51 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 17, 2020 at 6:55 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: That's why I suggested a fixed amount of time.

Nobody should justify what Hitler did. But lets say you gave 1,000 years for each of the 6 million Jews, and 50 million worldwide, no that would not be eternity, but after that finite time, nobody can claim someone like Hitler could or would learn their lesson. Even if one were not to torture Hitler in an "eternity" and gave him a fixed time, that still would not work because someone like that is irredeemable. 

All I was pointing out was that if there were a "hell" which there is not, Hitler would be one case one would be hard pressed not throw him in.

Prejudging AH to be irredeemable? I think after a thousand years of torture anybody would be willing to rethink their position. And if you make ever second feel like an eternity then AH would suffer 31,536,000,000* eternities of torment.

*Not counting leap years.

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(February 19, 2020 at 1:07 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's actually pretty hard to motivate yourself to torture.  The people who do it professionally get rotated so that it doesn't scramble their shit.  I think that you might find it alot easier than you think, even with hitler, to pass on torture.

Physical torture, yeah. But that's the low end.

That's one of the other problems with hell as the or part of the soul forge.

The end product isn't me, the sinner who learned the error of his ways - I haven't been forged at all. I've been fundamentally discarded and replaced with a model that pleases the divine presence a bit more in it's subservient humility and self hatred.

(February 19, 2020 at 1:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's one of the other problems with hell as the or part of the soul forge.  

The end product isn't me, the sinner who learned the error of his ways - I haven't been forged at all.  I've been fundamentally discarded and replaced with a model that pleases the divine presence a bit more in it's subservient humility and self hatred.

And being sinners we'll never please him.

I guess it depends on who you ask. If we shout hosanna when we hear that a jew was murdered for our innumerable sins, that's said to please him. If we blow big Mo and pray five times a day and buy a ticket to a tourist trap..that's said to please him. If we remember not to vacuum on the sabbath, that's said to please him.

Now, in the context of all that, it's really not hard to see why so many people who believe in gods think they run a torture pron palace. The fucker is psychotic. OFC he would.