(June 7, 2020 at 6:17 am)brokenreflector Wrote:

(June 7, 2020 at 6:15 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Whether morality is objective or subjective is not a question of whether god exists.

Sure it is because without God there cannot be objective moral values and duties.

Gods existence is not what makes a moral statement objective.  To give you an example...the statement-

"It is wrong to skullfuck your neighbor because it causes harm"

-is either true or false, based upon whether or not harm is caused, not whether or not a god exists.  

Quote:God's moral nature is independent of any subject's perception, so it's objective.

I would certainly hope that a god was capable of being an objective moral agent.  Humans manage it.  It remains a fact that moral objectivity is a question of whether moral statements are indepedent of a given subject, including gods.

(June 7, 2020 at 6:19 am)Nomad Wrote:

(June 6, 2020 at 10:42 pm)brokenreflector Wrote: He doesn't decide, no.

So your god, if he existed, isn't the ultimate being then.  There is something greater than him that decides what is moral.

Way to undermine yor religion, idiot.

How did you leap from God doesn't decide what is moral to there must be something greater than God?

If god is an objective moral agent, it must be referring to some standard outside of it's own nature, by definition.

It would be this same standard that we refer to if we made objective moral statements. This is one of the functions that moral realists who believe in god believe that god performs. A moral middle man.

(June 7, 2020 at 6:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Gods existence is not what makes a moral statement objective. 

Without God there is no ontological basis for objective moral values and duties.

Quote:"It is wrong to skullfuck your neighbor because it causes harm"

-is either true or false, based upon whether or not harm is caused

It's only your person-relative belief that something is wrong just because it causes harm.

Quote:It remains a fact that moral objectivity is a question of whether moral statements are indepedent of a given subject

God's moral nature is independent of any subject's perception, so it is objective.

(June 7, 2020 at 6:23 am)brokenreflector Wrote:

(June 7, 2020 at 6:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Gods existence is not what makes a moral statement objective. 

Without God there is no ontological basis for objective moral values and duties.

This may be an accurate description of your beliefs, but, if so...you are a moral subjectivist.

Quote:

Quote:"It is wrong to skullfuck your neighbor because it causes harm"

-is either true or false, based upon whether or not harm is caused

It's only your person-relative belief that something is wrong just because it causes harm.

-and that's a subjectivists objection.

Quote:

Quote:It remains a fact that moral objectivity is a question of whether moral statements are indepedent of a given subject

God's moral nature is independent of any subject's perception, so it is objective.

As I already said, I would hope so.  If we can pull it off, then gods should be able to pull it off.

(June 7, 2020 at 5:09 am)brokenreflector Wrote: I don't think existence is possible without God.

You are still evading.
I didn't ask about existence. I asked if you need a deity to keep you from killing.

(June 7, 2020 at 5:09 am)brokenreflector Wrote: I don't think existence is possible without God.
And if God is the creator of all things outside of Himself, then our faculties and moral intuitions are from Him.

If...if..if... That only would be relevant to my question: do you need a deity to keep you from killing?

(June 7, 2020 at 5:09 am)brokenreflector Wrote: I
What's more, objective moral values and duties cannot exist without God.

Irrelevant to my question, which was........

(June 7, 2020 at 5:09 am)brokenreflector Wrote: I
You saying you can be good without God is true only if God doesn't exist.

I gave you the courtesy to tell you about my state of mind, so we can begin a discussion about the need for morals from outside your own mind. I don't need a God to tell me not to kill. Do you?
Would you please return that fucking courtesy?
Is not my fault that you think your God does not exist as soon as you admit to be a human being with empathy.Maybe your God does exist AND you don't need him to fix your non-existing killing issue. In this case you should correct your faulty reasoning instead of avoiding simple questions.

Your God may exist, and he may ask a lot of me, like not wearing mixed fabric. But he doesn't need to tell me about killing. So I don't need to discuss killing with you. What about you?

Do you need a deity to stop you from killing, regardless it's existence? I am not asking if you think a god (must) exist, but if you have the desire to kill.

(June 7, 2020 at 6:20 am)brokenreflector Wrote:

(June 7, 2020 at 6:19 am)Nomad Wrote: So your god, if he existed, isn't the ultimate being then.  There is something greater than him that decides what is moral.

Way to undermine yor religion, idiot.

How did you leap from God doesn't decide what is moral to there must be something greater than God?

Because you've admitted a) that morality is a subjective matter (though you deny the admission, a common tactic among those who don't understand what they're arguing for) decided on by a being, and b) denied that god decides morality.

Therefore by your own logic, there must be a being greater than god which tells it what is moral and what is not. Oh and another little mind fuck for you, by the rules that supposedly come via god from this being, god is the most completely immoral being there is.

(June 7, 2020 at 6:26 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: you are a moral subjectivist.

False.

Quote:-and that's a subjectivists objection.

False.

Who or what told you that X is objectively wrong if it causes harm? This should be good.

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(June 7, 2020 at 6:28 am)Nomad Wrote: Because you've admitted a) that morality is a subjective matter

False.

Quote:b) denied that god decides morality.

True.

Quote:Therefore by your own logic, there must be a being greater than god

False and non-sequitur. God's moral values come from His own existence and not from any decision.

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(June 7, 2020 at 6:27 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Do you need a deity to stop you from killing, regardless it's existence? I am not asking if you think a god (must) exist, but if you have the desire to kill.

We both need God for our existence and nature; and our nature comprises our biological makeup, spiritual makeup, moral intuitions, and faculties. And God doesn't stop people from killing because that'd infringe upon the free will that He has given us.

You just got through suggesting that harm was just my opinion, after telling us that morality is based in the nature of a god.  You are a subjectivist leveraging subjectivist objections to moral objectivity.

Wondering who told us this or that is a malformed question to a moral objectivist.  If it's just something that someone told us, it would be subjective.  A moral objectivist determines whether something is good or bad based on relevant facts of the act in question.

(June 7, 2020 at 6:36 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You just got through suggesting that harm was just my opinion

You're an atheist--so under that umbrella it would just be your opinion that harming people is objectively evil.

I'd also like to know who or what told you, an atheist, that harming people is objectively evil. Try not to dodge the question this time.

Quote:after telling us that morality is based in the nature of a god.

Well, I'm a theist, so I actually have a good reason to believe in objective moral values and duties. You don't.

Quote:You are a subjectivist

False.

Quote:If it's just something that someone told us, it would be subjective

False.

Going by that line of reasoning, the universe being 13.8 billion years old would magically become subjective once a person told me that was the case. Like I said before, you don't understand how to reason--which is probably why you're an atheist.

So where did this principle of "harming people is objectively evil" come from if not from God?