Why are transgender people more likely to commit suicide? Because they're mislead/indoctrinated.

(July 22, 2020 at 1:22 pm)Porcupine Wrote:

(July 22, 2020 at 1:21 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: That doesn't hold.

The article you linked to disagrees.

And I have to agree with every opinion expressed in any link I post?

...

How many attempt suicide is factual - it is a quantifiable number.

Why they do it is a matter of OPINION...

(July 22, 2020 at 1:38 pm)Lawz Wrote: Why are transgender people more likely to commit suicide? Because they're mislead/indoctrinated.

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

Boru

(July 22, 2020 at 1:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(July 22, 2020 at 1:23 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: So no discussion should be made.


Nice..

Just wondering why you would ask a question that (presumably) you already have the answer to.

Boru

YOU don't have the answer. I don't have it.


UCLA doesn't have it.

Only those who try killing themselves know it. We can ask them - but who knows if they will tell us the truth?

Suicide is after all a rather personal thing.

(July 22, 2020 at 1:59 pm)onlinebiker Wrote:

(July 22, 2020 at 1:22 pm)Porcupine Wrote: The article you linked to disagrees.

And I have to agree with every opinion expressed in any link I post?

...

How many attempt suicide is factual - it is a quantifiable number.

Why they do it is a matter of OPINION...

Nobody said you have to agree with anything or anybody ...

Just seems rather odd to post a link and then ask a question about it without even addressing the answer it gave.

And the fact you're ignoring data says something. If 98% of suicidal transgender people did it after being discriminated against then I don't think it's rational to dismiss that as merely coincidental or not why they did it. Seems like you just don't like the idea of that being the explanation. Saying that such data is just 'opinion' is just silly. You seem very irrational. And emotional. And you don't seem very tolerant.

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(July 22, 2020 at 2:02 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Suicide is after all a rather personal thing.

So is one's gender identity. So when that gets attacked it it's not at all unreasonable to understand that that can cause suicidality. And why ignore clear data that testifies to that? I could understand that even BEFORE I read the data in your link that backs up exactly what I already understand. Data which your ignore and dismiss as 'opinion'.

Yes, data that merely said that transgender people are often suicidal wouldn't by itself say why. But data that says that 98% of suicidal trans people do it after being discriminated against absolutely is an explanation for why.

Yeah, funny thing, the article outright explains several risk factors, and they're not just buried in the text, they explain some of the key findings in a section called "highlights." All I needed to do was scroll down a bit, and then, I'd find, in big red-orange letters:

• Respondents who experienced discrimination or were a victim of violence were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts.
  
• Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide.
  
• Access to gender-affirming medical care is associated with a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts.
  

Scroll down a bit more, and you find that 98% of respondents who had experienced four instances of violence and discrimination in the past year had thought about suicide in that time frame. And 51% of that group actually attempted it.

Seriously, it's right fucking there in the link you posted. And frankly, if you're going to argue that their conclusions are invalid, you're going to have to do better than saying "I dunno, other groups get marginalised and they don't have the sort of suicide rates trans people do." Maybe it's because as they get more accepted, their suicide rates start to drop, which is something that the study itself points out is happening with trans people who actually get gender-affirming care. This is a Sargon of Akkad level of intellectual laziness.

And that's another reason why the analogy with black people fails. Black children with black parents are unlikely to be told they're unnatural and that there is something wrong with them for being black when their parents are black too.

But parents of transgender people are usually not transgender themselves and certainly are more likely to mistreat their transgender child that way.

What's more, although there is still homophobia and homophobes .... there is even more transphobia and even more transphobes. Almost all homophobes are also transphobes but there are plenty of transphobes that aren't homophobes. And plenty of transphobic gay people too. People who aren't bigoted about other things are still often bigoted about transpeople. Transphobia is so widespread it's ridiculous.

(July 22, 2020 at 2:04 pm)Porcupine Wrote:

(July 22, 2020 at 1:59 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: And I have to agree with every opinion expressed in any link I post?

...

How many attempt suicide is factual - it is a quantifiable number.

Why they do it is a matter of OPINION...

Nobody said you have to agree with anything or anybody ...

Just seems rather odd to post a link and then ask a question about it without even addressing the answer it gave.

And the fact you're ignoring data says something. If 98% of suicidal transgender people did it after being discriminated against then I don't think it's rational to dismiss that as merely coincidental or not why they did it. Seems like you just don't like the idea of that being the explanation. Saying that such data is just 'opinion' is just silly. You seem very irrational.  And emotional. And you don't seem very tolerant.

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(July 22, 2020 at 2:02 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Suicide is after all a rather personal thing.

So is one's gender identity. So when that gets attacked it it's not at all unreasonable to understand that that can cause suicidality. And why ignore clear data that testifies to that? I could understand that even BEFORE I read the data in your link that backs up exactly what I already understand. Data which your ignore and dismiss as 'opinion'.

Yes, data that merely said that transgender people are often suicidal wouldn't by itself say why. But data that says that 98% of suicidal trans people do it after being discriminated against absolutely is an explanation for why.

You are accepting opinion as data.

The "why" of suicide is always unknowable.

You can draw guesses based on observation and interrogation - but you don't ever know if you have drawn the right conclusion.

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(July 22, 2020 at 2:13 pm)Porcupine Wrote: And that's another reason why the analogy with black people fails. Black children with black parents are unlikely to be told they're unnatural and that there is something wrong with them for being black when their parents are black too.

But parents of transgender people are usually not transgender themselves and certainly are more likely to mistreat their transgender child that way.

What's more, although there is still homophobia and homophobes .... there is even more transphobia and even more transphobes. Almost all homophobes are also transphobes but there are plenty of transphobes that aren't homophobes. And plenty of transphobic gay people too.  People who aren't bigoted about other things are still often bigoted about transpeople. Transphobia is so widespread it's ridiculous.

Nobody is suggesting transphobia is not widespread.

That does not mean that being discriminated against is the reason for the higher suicide rate.

I think this video seems appropriate, given how Biker takes the discussion of metaphysical skepticism Olly talks about to the next level by insisting that the reasons people commit suicide are invariably unknowable, EVEN AS THE SUICIDAL PEOPLE IN QUESTION EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHY THEY DID IT AND WHAT SHITTY CIRCUMSTANCES WERE HAPPENING IN THEIR LIVES AT THE TIME TO HELP MAKE IT WORSE:



And, for someone who claims it’s impossible to know why people kill themselves, it sounds like he’s got some very definite hypotheses why they do, but is too cowardly to just say them.

Quote:Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide.

Quote:And that's another reason why the analogy with black people fails. Black children with black parents are unlikely to be told they're unnatural and that there is something wrong with them for being black when their parents are black too.

I think these may go a long way towards explaining why other discriminated-against groups don't have as high a suicide rate as transgendered people: black people aren't terribly likely to be rejected by their families for being black, for instance.  In addition, the black community in the US is much, MUCH larger than the transgender community.  There's much more likely to be support for someone feeling discriminated against.

Boru