Why are transgender people more likely to commit suicide?

[Porcupine]

You are accepting opinion as data.

The "why" of suicide is always unknowable.

You can draw guesses based on observation and interrogation - but you don't ever know if you have drawn the right conclusion.

people too.  People who aren't bigoted about other things are still often bigoted about transpeople. Transphobia is so widespread it's ridiculous.

If you think that statistical data is mere opinion then what is stopping you from making the same mistake with regards to other statistical data? Your own intolerance not wanting to see the truth, I reckon.

What's more---if you tell yourself it's "always unknowable" then you're shutting yourself off without being open to empirical data. Totally irrational. And I think your irrationality is clearly motivated by emotion rather than reason.

Nobody is suggesting transphobia is not widespread.

That does not mean that being discriminated against is the reason for the higher suicide rate.

Talk about missing the point.

Your mind is clearly not open to reason yet. I give up. Hopefully someday somebody else will manage to penetrate. I am done investing mental energy on you.

[onlinebiker]

You are accepting opinion as data.

The "why" of suicide is always unknowable.

You can draw guesses based on observation and interrogation - but you don't ever know if you have drawn the right conclusion.

people too.  People who aren't bigoted about other things are still often bigoted about transpeople. Transphobia is so widespread it's ridiculous.

If you think that statistical data is mere opinion then what is stopping you from making the same mistake with regards to other statistical data? Your own intolerance not wanting to see the truth, I reckon.

What's more---if you tell yourself it's "always unknowable" then you're shutting yourself off without being open to empirical data. Totally irrational. And I think your irrationality is clearly motivated by emotion rather than reason.

Nobody is suggesting transphobia is not widespread.

That does not mean that being discriminated against is the reason for the higher suicide rate.

Talk about missing the point.

Your mind is clearly not open to reason yet. I give up. Hopefully someday somebody else will manage to penetrate. I am done investing mental energy on you.

Yeah
...

It's horrible when people march out of step...



Carry on.

---

I think this video seems appropriate, given how Biker takes the discussion of metaphysical skepticism Olly talks about to the next level by insisting that the reasons people commit suicide are invariably unknowable, EVEN AS THE SUICIDAL PEOPLE IN QUESTION EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHY THEY DID IT AND WHAT SHITTY CIRCUMSTANCES WERE HAPPENING IN THEIR LIVES AT THE TIME TO HELP MAKE IT WORSE:



And, for someone who claims it’s impossible to know why people kill themselves, it sounds like he’s got some very definite hypotheses why they do, but is too cowardly to just say them.

What part of "I don't know why they do it" sounds like an assumption that I do?


I don't know means what it sounds like. I don't know.

The problem you are having - is I am not willing to believe you DO.

[Rev. Rye]

Frankly, the fact that you took until the second page of this thread to play the "suicide is unknowable" card, and dismissed the arguments that trans people are more likely to commit suicide because of discrimination points fairly strongly towards you thinking that trans people are naturally prone to mental illness or something in ways that can't be fixed by society becoming more tolerant.

Something tells me that if you really approached this with the mindset that suicide is unknowable, you'd have approached your OP like that (pointing out the inherent flaws in surveys) instead of wondering "Is a trans person more likely to commit suicide, or is a suicidal person more likely to change gender?" And even if you didn't set out to make it a question of nature vs. nurture, when Porcupine pointed out that the evidence, especially in the link you cited, points strongly towards nurture, you dismissed it. And when others joined in and pointed out how questionable your dismissal was, then and only then did you change tactics and ask "who can say why people kill themselves? It's such a personal affair."

You might be able to argue that the question in the OP was about something other than the nature-nurture debate over trans suicide, but something tells me you'd at least have tried to explain yourself and try to steer the discussion back on track. And after all that, I can only assume that when you bring up the topic, ask questions, and then suddenly say that you don't think those questions can be answered when we try to do so, I don't think you're being truly candid with us about what you really think.

[Porcupine]

@Rev. Rye

I'd agree with the proviso that his deception is probably ultimately due to self-deception and cognitive dissonance that he is not even aware of (and so I wouldn't call him dishonest. I'd call him unknowingly inauthentic). And ultimately caused by his own nature and/or nurture. Such is life.

[Mister Agenda]

If it were true that there was something intrinsic to trans people that makes them more likely to contemplate and/or commit suicide, that would still be a good reason to treat them better.

[Porcupine]

If it were true that there was something intrinsic to trans people that makes them more likely to contemplate and/or commit suicide, that would still be a good reason to treat them better.

That's one great way to debunk truly terrible arguments. Say something like "I disagree with your premise strongly but nevermind that. Let's accept your premise anyway, for sake of argument. Now, watch where the logic from that premise takes you. Even if we accept your silly premise: your conclusion doesn't follow."

[John 6IX Breezy]

Two disclaimers: There was a lot of statistical information to digest so I only got the gist of the article. And I only read a few of the comments here. If I misread something in the article I'll correct it when I'm home.

The proper way to test whether or not discrimination leads to higher suicide rates in the trans community, would be to compare them to another community that faces equal discrimination. Presumably the non-trans members of the LGBT community. Comparing them to the general population is uninformative.

The article listed many ways in which discrimination and lack of support leads to suicide ideation, etc., within the community. However, one bit of data that doesn't quiet fit for me is that these rates go down for those that underwent hormone therapy or surgery. And back up for those that transitioned back to their original sex.

This is perhaps the only bit of data that makes me wonder if there is something unique about transgenders that other discriminated groups do not face. I base this on the assumption that transsexuals face more discrimination than other transgenders. Given that it is typically the appearance of being transexual that draws the most attention. Yet their rates go down after transitioning.

My theory would be that the transgender community faces higher suicide rates than other groups, because of the dysphoria they often experience. The feeling that you don't belong in your own body and are trapped in the wrong sex is bound to lead to depression and suicidal thoughts even in a world without discrimination.

[Rev. Rye]

Unfortunately, given that it’s still legal in many states to discriminate against trans people, it’s kind of hard to find a group that gets an equal amount of discrimination.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Unfortunately, given that it’s still legal in many states to discriminate against trans people, it’s kind of hard to find a group that gets an equal amount of discrimination.

If such is the case there should be data to confirm it. And if there's data that discrimination is not equal between the groups you can still do within-subjects and between-subject analysis to see how much discrimination correlates with suicide for each group.

My prediction is that homophobia and transphobia are about the same. (And not because I have a textbook on the psychology of predjudice and that's what it says lol)

[no one]

Maybe heaven needs to be fabulous. Or, they are confused, bullied, and all around treated as if something is wrong with them.