lucent Wrote:What exactly is this interpretation of QM specifically?

Relational quantum mechanics

http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/quant-ph/pd...9002v2.pdf

lucent Wrote:If you want to reduce each person to a system which is a self contained "universe", just receiving signals from entanglements from other such universes, what is the character or quality of that existence.

The 'character' of existence is some value some system has.

lucent Wrote:It's a logically incoherent definition since all the systems are functionally interdependent, thus former a larger system, and all having a common origin. A Universe full of universes is still a Universe.

You keep assuming that there is a background space within which everything exists. Things can exist without existing within a common state space. This is the entire idea behind relativity. There isn't actually a spatial universe that we sit within. Space is created by relationship.

So, the point actually is the opposite. This is the exact same idea as relativity, applied to quantized systems. In this interpretation, values are only definable relative to one another and there is no 'common origin'. Otherwise, they would all be definable relative to that. Which they aren't (same as relativity).

lucent Wrote:God is objective in that He knows everything and every possible perspective simultaneously. God is subjective in that He is arbitrary.

How does being arbitrary make something subjective?



I'm new to the board. I'm really wasting my time, aren't I?

I thought this might be an interesting discussion. I was wrong.

(October 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: Being conscious individually, as I assume everyone else is, the question comes to mind; why do I exist from a 1st person point of view? Obviously I couldn't exist from a 3rd person POV, but when I die it'll seem to me as if the world ends; MY world will end. How can I explain this... When you sleep without dreaming everything is nonremembered, and seems 'black'. If death is the same, then it'll be lights out for eternity, and therefore I'm wondering why I'm conscious to begin with. Why me? Why here? Why now? Why at all? etc.

Any answers or ideas? I've asked my friends and family, but they don't really grasp the concept of the question.

You are here because God chose this time for you to be, no one chooses their time it is a gift give by God and this life you have is to be lived to it's fullest, to glorify God, and you will no matter how you choose to live your life, this is why you were given freewill.

Can you return said gift?

'to glorify God'

Is he Kim Jong Il?

That would explain a lot.

(November 3, 2011 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: You are here because God chose this time for you to be, no one chooses their time it is a gift give by God and this life you have is to be lived to it's fullest, to glorify God, and you will no matter how you choose to live your life, this is why you were given freewill.

So, god alone made this choice, so that you could glorify him, and even if you do "evil" you can't help but glorify him, and that, ladies and gentleman, is why god gave you "free will".

Sounds pretty shakey. Seems to be more than one claim made without any substantiation. I'm also pretty sure that it's not actually a coherent explanation for anything.

(November 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 3, 2011 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: You are here because God chose this time for you to be, no one chooses their time it is a gift give by God and this life you have is to be lived to it's fullest, to glorify God, and you will no matter how you choose to live your life, this is why you were given freewill.

So, god alone made this choice, so that you could glorify him, and even if you do "evil" you can't help but glorify him, and that, ladies and gentleman, is why god gave you "free will".

Sounds pretty shakey. Seems to be more than one claim made without any substantiation. I'm also pretty sure that it's not actually a coherent explanation for anything.

What ever you do in this life will in the end glorify God, through justice.

(November 2, 2011 at 1:17 am)toro Wrote: I'm new to the board. I'm really wasting my time, aren't I?

I thought this might be an interesting discussion. I was wrong.

Welcome to Atheist Forums. From your response it would seem that you expect logic and reality from a theist. You do know they believe in fairy tales? The interest is how they get setup to fail. Like watching a race waiting on the wreck.

(November 3, 2011 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(October 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: Being conscious individually, as I assume everyone else is, the question comes to mind; why do I exist from a 1st person point of view? Obviously I couldn't exist from a 3rd person POV, but when I die it'll seem to me as if the world ends; MY world will end. How can I explain this... When you sleep without dreaming everything is nonremembered, and seems 'black'. If death is the same, then it'll be lights out for eternity, and therefore I'm wondering why I'm conscious to begin with. Why me? Why here? Why now? Why at all? etc.

Any answers or ideas? I've asked my friends and family, but they don't really grasp the concept of the question.

You are here because God chose this time for you to be, no one chooses their time it is a gift give by God and this life you have is to be lived to it's fullest, to glorify God, and you will no matter how you choose to live your life, this is why you were given freewill.

You have also completely missed the point by assuming that a deity would see fit to create anything as a static infinity. Calling out the idiots ftw.

(October 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: Being conscious individually, as I assume everyone else is, the question comes to mind; why do I exist from a 1st person point of view? Obviously I couldn't exist from a 3rd person POV, but when I die it'll seem to me as if the world ends; MY world will end. How can I explain this... When you sleep without dreaming everything is nonremembered, and seems 'black'. If death is the same, then it'll be lights out for eternity, and therefore I'm wondering why I'm conscious to begin with. Why me? Why here? Why now? Why at all? etc.

Any answers or ideas? I've asked my friends and family, but they don't really grasp the concept of the question.

I have no answers but I ponder the same thing and grasp exactly what you mean.

Why aren't you me. Why aren't I you? Why am I me now, not somebody else in 1700. It is brain bursting.

Those that answer "your brain, electical circuitry creates consciousness" are failing to grasp the concept of the question. We can seek to explain what consciousness is and how it works through science, but why me...?

You could just as easily be a fly that gets squashed after a day of existence. Or a dog or cat, or other human.

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(November 4, 2011 at 1:15 am)Godschild Wrote:

(November 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 3, 2011 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: You are here because God chose this time for you to be, no one chooses their time it is a gift give by God and this life you have is to be lived to it's fullest, to glorify God, and you will no matter how you choose to live your life, this is why you were given freewill.

So, god alone made this choice, so that you could glorify him, and even if you do "evil" you can't help but glorify him, and that, ladies and gentleman, is why god gave you "free will".

Sounds pretty shakey. Seems to be more than one claim made without any substantiation. I'm also pretty sure that it's not actually a coherent explanation for anything.

What ever you do in this life will in the end glorify God, through justice.

Why does god need to be glorified, and why do we need to spend 70 years on earth to do this? Can't he just glorify himself, being all powerful?

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(October 12, 2010 at 7:32 pm)Existentialist Wrote:

(October 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm)R-e-n-n-a-t Wrote: when I die it'll seem to me as if the world ends; MY world will end. How can I explain this... When you sleep without dreaming everything is nonremembered, and seems 'black'. If death is the same, then it'll be lights out for eternity, and therefore I'm wondering why I'm conscious to begin with. Why me? Why here? Why now? Why at all? etc.

Any answers or ideas? I've asked my friends and family, but they don't really grasp the concept of the question.

It's problematic to compare death to sleeping without dreaming. In sleep our brains continue to function. In death we don't actually have a functioning brain. We can observe others who are not functioning, but we can never experience ourselves not functioning. There is therefore no such thing as subjective death, either before or after our spell of living. And since our death viewed by another person isn't our experience, we can have no awareness of what it is like to be dead, infact wondering it is pointless. It certainly can't be compared to black or lights out - these are relative concepts, and in death we have no comparators.

Therefore, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing we can experience is life. Death has no meaning for us. Obviously it's different if someone else dies (we get upset). But we can't put ourselves in their shoes, because to put yourself in another's shoes, you have to have some experience that is comparable to what they are experiencing.

Life, and everything in it, is the only experience I will ever have. The experience of one's own death doesn't exist. This is a good basis for optimism.

Obviously at some point we will all experience a crisis of the viability of our bodies. That could be quite distressing, I'd hope to have access to some calming drugs by that stage, infact I think I'd rather not be aware of it. But to be apprehensive about what will happen after that crisis is over and our bodies are no longer viable isn't logical. Rethinking that bit is a good way of preparing for this final crisis.

I'd say unconsciousness is a good window into death, as is the time before you existed. Death is non existence so I expect after death to be the same as before conception. Nothingness, and not knowing about it.

I had an operation a year ago, and I found the concept of complete unconsciousness interesting, I faded away then opened my eyes, with nothing in between. I'd say death is that except you don't wake up again.