(June 15, 2021 at 6:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Back to divine hiddenness, it's enough to say that we are not omniscient beings, and so the reason why a deity chooses to reveal itself through means other than direct physical reality might be beyond our understanding.

Why can't atheists accept that some things a deity chooses to do can be beyond us ? Apparently they have trouble getting past their own ego...

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(June 15, 2021 at 6:50 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Bold mine - 

Who is "we"?  Are there a lot of you in that head of yours?

Well, by we I am referring to the vast majority of people endorsing abrahamic religions.

Quote:Yes, and they are too hard for you to fathom. Now proceed to bang your head against the wall

Quote:That's all we need to answer your stupid objections to hiddenness.

Quote:Well, you may notice that there are too many "lols", "Hehe", and "you fail" in your answer. I mean clearly, it has everything to do with ego.

(June 15, 2021 at 7:11 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Maybe God stays hidden because he’s got bad teeth and is self-conscious about it.

No sillier that any other ‘explanation’.

Boru

(June 15, 2021 at 7:07 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: By infinitely good, I mean good in every way that is logically possible, or maximally good. The limits you're talking about are logical possibility. These minutiae notwithstanding, I think it's still accurate to use the term infinite.

(June 15, 2021 at 5:01 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(June 15, 2021 at 3:54 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Within the framework of Christianity knowledge of God’s existence should matter. Sure, believers disobeyed and rebelled, but one has no ability to either obey or disobey an entity that they aren’t convinced exists in the first place.

I don't think that's entirely true. Consider the following verses—the entire premise implies that a Christian who knows about God can be lost, while an atheist that's never heard about God or His laws can be saved:

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus" (Romans 2:15, ESV).

(June 15, 2021 at 9:54 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Except that Ephesians 2:4-9 says:

(June 15, 2021 at 1:57 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 15, 2021 at 12:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I was speaking with a long-time friend of the family, who is a practicing Jew, about prayer and why god doesn’t reveal himself to his creation. His explanation was one that I actually had never heard before. Assuming free will for the sake of the argument, I’d say it’s one of the more reasonable (maybe I should say least irrational) explanations for god’s hiddenness that I’ve heard. If our parents followed us around everywhere we went, would we ever really be free to break the rules? Thoughts? 

“Just as God's purpose does not allow man to be a physical prisoner, neither does it permit him to exist in an intellectual prison. How would man behave if God were to constantly reveal Himself? Would he really be free? If man were constantly made aware that he was standing in the King's presence, could he go against His will? If God's existence were constantly apparent, this awareness would make man a prisoner.“

A god revealing himself is logically impossible

(June 15, 2021 at 2:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: The power of our senses is limited. We can't even see a laser beam how can we possibly detect a deity, and even we see what resembles a deity, there is no way to confirm it through senses alone.

(June 15, 2021 at 3:16 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: As I understand it, belief in God's existence has never been the most important variable:

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" (James 2:19, NKJV).

And in one of the parables the analogy was given of a dead man asking to be sent back from the grave so that people might see him and repent. The response was this:

"He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead" (Like 16:31, ESV).

Obviously this is New Testament and your friend is Jewish, but it echoes his point in a sightly different way. It argues that nothing of value changes by believing He exists. Almost every story in the Bible, from Adam and Eve onwards, involves people who saw or experienced God in some way, and nevertheless betrayed Him.

So this adds to your friends argument, which I think is good as well.

(June 15, 2021 at 3:26 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(June 15, 2021 at 3:08 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I can’t think of a scenario where more information about a subject would limit someone’s intellectual freedom rather than the other way around.

Almost every psychological study involves withholding certain information from the subjects, otherwise their choices are compromised and the research is invalid.

(June 15, 2021 at 3:30 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: Great; and do you realize that religious people, regardless of being convinced of God's existence, nevertheless act in ways inconsistent with that belief?

You do as well—its normal human behavior. You procrastinate despite knowing your work is due. You don't eat right or exercise despite knowing the consequences. The list goes on—knowledge does not equal behavioral change. This work of fiction seems to have nailed it on the head don't you agree?