For the record, the “only a minority of soldiers actually shot at the enemy” thing has been verified by other historians for other wars all the way back to the 18th century. Richard Holmes’ Acts of War: Behavior of Men in Battle comes to mind as a source.

That said, things did change in Vietnam, specifically because the Army actually took his research to heart and made more of an emphasis on training men to kill, which explains Biker’s objections. Perhaps asking WW2 Vets would be more of an apples to apples comparison.

It' s simple really.

You can' t hit shit in full automatic.


Do the research - it is a proven fact that through history the number of bullets needed to inflict a single enemy casualty has gone up as rifles were given higher capacity and increased rate of fire.

Nothing beats a carefully placed single shot.

(October 18, 2021 at 1:38 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: It' s simple really.

You can' t hit shit in full automatic.


Do the research - it is a proven fact that through history the number of bullets needed to inflict a single enemy casualty has gone up as rifles were given higher capacity and increased rate of fire.

Nothing beats a carefully placed single shot.

Yea, but nothing beats corporate profits than more sales. I seriously don't understand how you oversimplify gun ownership. You sound like everyone in my life who looks at me cross eyed when I say, "I can't do that" or "don't want to do that" or should not do that". 

Is it possible to put people on the moon? Yes, of course. But is everyone qualified to head a space program? 

You cant hit shit in a full automatic? REALLY? Over 50 concert goers in Vegas lost their lives. Or did you forget that? So when the allies invaded the beaches of the Pacific and used flame throwers to smoke out the Japanese in caves, that carpet spray of fire had no effect?

(October 18, 2021 at 1:46 pm)Brian37 Wrote: You cant hit shit in a full automatic? REALLY? Over 50 concert goers in Vegas lost their lives. Or did you forget that? So when the allies invaded the beaches of the Pacific and used flame throwers to smoke out the Japanese in caves, that carpet spray of fire had no effect?

Full auto is for crowd control, not for hitting a single target (unless the target is close).  It is a support weapon, and is very effective at killing, when there are many targets.  It also suppresses enemy fire.

For single targets at any distance, you want semi-auto.  You will re-aim after each shot.

(October 18, 2021 at 1:46 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(October 18, 2021 at 1:38 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: It' s simple really.

You can' t hit shit in full automatic.


Do the research - it is a proven fact that through history the number of bullets needed to inflict a single enemy casualty has gone up as rifles were given higher capacity and increased rate of fire.

Nothing beats a carefully placed single shot.

Yea, but nothing beats corporate profits than more sales. I seriously don't understand how you oversimplify gun ownership. You sound like everyone in my life who looks at me cross eyed when I say, "I can't do that" or "don't want to do that" or should not do that". 

Is it possible to put people on the moon? Yes, of course. But is everyone qualified to head a space program? 

You cant hit shit in a full automatic? REALLY? Over 50 concert goers in Vegas lost their lives. Or did you forget that? So when the allies invaded the beaches of the Pacific and used flame throwers to smoke out the Japanese in caves, that carpet spray of fire had no effect?

OLB is talking about war, the situation in Vegas was much different. In war, people are fighting back and/or attempting to keep from being hit themselves. That's markedly different from spraying bullets into a huddled pack of concert-goers.

Boru

(October 18, 2021 at 2:02 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(October 18, 2021 at 1:46 pm)Brian37 Wrote: You cant hit shit in a full automatic? REALLY? Over 50 concert goers in Vegas lost their lives. Or did you forget that? So when the allies invaded the beaches of the Pacific and used flame throwers to smoke out the Japanese in caves, that carpet spray of fire had no effect?

Full auto is for crowd control, not for hitting a single target (unless the target is close).  It is a support weapon, and is very effective at killing, when there are many targets.  It also suppresses enemy fire.

For single targets at any distance, you want semi-auto.  You will re-aim after each shot.

Nothing of what you said, has to do with daily civilian gun death, handgun or high capacity automatic.

I am talking strictly about volume of firearms made and sold and the ease of obtaining them, and a crappy vetting system.

Of course you can train military or police to use a single shot. But you cannot apply that to civilians, because right now, our laws suck. 

But to say in war there is no such thing as spray, to kill en mass is absurd. Dresden was carpet bombing and it killed 10s of thousands of civilians regardless if the intent was to punish the Nazis. But that is an entirely different context. Fat Man And Little Boy killed innocent civilians too. But we are not talking about conventional war here. We are talking about industry, like big tobacco, and the fossil fuel industry. 

I get sick of folks arguing over size of weapon, or "I didn't, or wouldn't do that" and " I have the right".

Any zoologist, say like Steve Irwin, would tell you it isn't wise to screw with cobras, while it could be argued someone does need to understand them and handle them to educate the public . But it would be insane to sell cobras like candy bars. When someone argues "an object cannot act on it's own", they are correct. But, if you produce asbestos and don't care whom it gets sick, it is about the manufacturers not caring about whom their products end up hurting. 

The nutcase who went 32 stories up in the Vegas hotel with dozens of spray weapons and thousands of rounds, was not promoting firearm safety, he was able to do what he did, because our laws SUCK.

So back to the woman who was raped while other passengers looked on...opinions on that or is this just going to devolve into another giving away guns like candy thread?

The discussion had veered toward military weapon use. We can always trust you to bring it back to domestic gun control.

Like Brewer said: more details are needed to judge.

If this had happened in Rhode Island, every person on that bus in possession of a cell phone would face a $500 fine and a year in jail upon conviction.

Boru