Just as The Persian Emperor Artaxerxes did, when he sent the Jews back from Babylon, (with Ezra with the new "Torah of Moses" under his arm, as the Bible describes), just as Alexander did, Constantine used religion to unify a far-flung empire. Just as the Arabs would use the new religion they cooked up to unify their new empire, religion was used as a political tool. It worked. Constantine called the Council of Nicaea (as well as faking his own conversion) to stop all the squabbling in the Christian sects. He told them he didn't care what they agreed on at the Council, but they had to agree on something. Without Constantine we would never have heard of Christianity. It was all political for all of the above.

(July 26, 2023 at 1:50 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Western music really is not the possession of the religious. Many musicians who were not any sect wrote music for the church, as that was the only way to make a regular income.

Right, but I don't think that's true of Bach specifically, which is who I mentioned. He composed masses, "St Matthew's Passion" and others, and was a lifelong keyboardist in church services. Although he did write secular pieces, it's fair to say many of his greatest works were inspired by his faith.

(July 26, 2023 at 7:19 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 26, 2023 at 1:50 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Western music really is not the possession of the religious. Many musicians who were not any sect wrote music for the church, as that was the only way to make a regular income.

Right, but I don't think that's true of Bach specifically, which is who I mentioned. He composed masses, "St Matthew's Passion" and others, and was a lifelong keyboardist in church services. Although he did write secular pieces, it's fair to say many of his greatest works were inspired by his faith.

Not sure I agree. He wrote a whole bunch of other (secular) stuff also, (Brandenburg Concertos example), and I have no information if he was "devout" or not, so I don't know what the inspiration was.

(July 26, 2023 at 7:35 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(July 26, 2023 at 7:19 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Right, but I don't think that's true of Bach specifically, which is who I mentioned. He composed masses, "St Matthew's Passion" and others, and was a lifelong keyboardist in church services. Although he did write secular pieces, it's fair to say many of his greatest works were inspired by his faith.

Not sure I agree. He wrote a whole bunch of other (secular) stuff also, (Brandenburg Concertos example), [..]

Yeah, I mentioned that already, thanks; we're in agreement on that. [See emphasis above]

Quote: ... and I have no information if he was "devout" or not, so I don't know what the inspiration was.

I didn't say his only inspiration was Christianity. But he attended Lutheran church from boyhood. He played for churches throughout his adult life.

Quote:He produced several church cantatas at this time; all of these works are cast in a conservative mold, based on biblical and chorale texts and displaying no influence of the “modern” Italian operatic forms that were to appear in Bach’s later cantatas. The famous organ Toccata and Fugue in D Minor (BWV 565), written in the rhapsodic northern style, and the Prelude and Fugue in D Major (BWV 532) may also have been composed during the Mühlhausen period, as well as the organ Passacaglia in C Minor (BWV 582), an early example of Bach’s instinct for large-scale organization. Cantata No. 71, Gott ist mein König (God Is My King), of February 4, 1708, was printed at the expense of the city council and was the first of Bach’s compositions to be published.

[...]

As director of church music for the city of Leipzig, Bach had to supply performers for four churches. At the Peterskirche the choir merely led the hymns. At the Neue Kirche, Nikolaikirche, and Thomaskirche, part singing was required; but Bach himself conducted, and his own church music was performed, only at the last two. His first official performance was on May 30, 1723, the first Sunday after Trinity Sunday, with Cantata No. 75, Die Elenden sollen essen. New works produced during this year include many cantatas and the Magnificat in its first version. The first half of 1724 saw the production of the St. John Passion, which was subsequently revised. The total number of cantatas produced during this ecclesiastical year was about 62, of which about 39 were new works.

On June 11, 1724, the first Sunday after Trinity, Bach began a fresh annual cycle of cantatas, and within the year he wrote 52 of the so-called chorale cantatas, formerly supposed to have been composed over the nine-year period 1735–44. The “Sanctus” of the Mass in B Minor was produced at Christmas.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joh...tian-Bach/

I think it's fair to say that a piece titled "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desire" has religious inspiration at its root.

Do you have any objective reason for doubting his faith, or the music it inspired? Do you have any sources one might read about this?

(July 26, 2023 at 8:17 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 26, 2023 at 7:35 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Not sure I agree. He wrote a whole bunch of other (secular) stuff also, (Brandenburg Concertos example), [..]

Yeah, I mentioned that already, thanks; we're in agreement on that. [See emphasis above]

Quote: ... and I have no information if he was "devout" or not, so I don't know what the inspiration was.

I didn't say his only inspiration was Christianity.  But he attended Lutheran church from boyhood. He played for churches throughout his adult life.

Quote:He produced several church cantatas at this time; all of these works are cast in a conservative mold, based on biblical and chorale texts and displaying no influence of the “modern” Italian operatic forms that were to appear in Bach’s later cantatas. The famous organ Toccata and Fugue in D Minor (BWV 565), written in the rhapsodic northern style, and the Prelude and Fugue in D Major (BWV 532) may also have been composed during the Mühlhausen period, as well as the organ Passacaglia in C Minor (BWV 582), an early example of Bach’s instinct for large-scale organization. Cantata No. 71, Gott ist mein König (God Is My King), of February 4, 1708, was printed at the expense of the city council and was the first of Bach’s compositions to be published.

[...]

As director of church music for the city of Leipzig, Bach had to supply performers for four churches. At the Peterskirche the choir merely led the hymns. At the Neue Kirche, Nikolaikirche, and Thomaskirche, part singing was required; but Bach himself conducted, and his own church music was performed, only at the last two. His first official performance was on May 30, 1723, the first Sunday after Trinity Sunday, with Cantata No. 75, Die Elenden sollen essen. New works produced during this year include many cantatas and the Magnificat in its first version. The first half of 1724 saw the production of the St. John Passion, which was subsequently revised. The total number of cantatas produced during this ecclesiastical year was about 62, of which about 39 were new works.

On June 11, 1724, the first Sunday after Trinity, Bach began a fresh annual cycle of cantatas, and within the year he wrote 52 of the so-called chorale cantatas, formerly supposed to have been composed over the nine-year period 1735–44. The “Sanctus” of the Mass in B Minor was produced at Christmas.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joh...tian-Bach/

I think it's fair to say that a piece titled "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desire" has religious inspiration at its root.

Do you have any objective reason for doubting his faith, or the music it inspired?  Do you have any sources one might read about this?

It's not "fair". You obviously don't know any church musicians, and me, I know too many.  
He needed a piece, found a text, (or was given it), and wrote it out. Your assumption is totally unwarranted. 
He needed something to fill out a service, just like countless others.
I might not doubt his faith, but I know of no reason to assume his work-product or even occupation was in any way the result of any "faith".
Why is a Lutheran writing Catholic masses ?

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's not "fair". You obviously don't know any church musicians, and me, I know too many.  

You're wrong here. My mom, who turned me onto Bach in the first place, played organ in her church from eleven to eighteen, when she married. And having myself sang choir in church as a youth, I knew pianists, organists, and guitarists who played for services. This is you trying to chest-thump when you don't know your ass from third base about your interlocutor.

You should probably limit yourself to posting about things you know about, but that would likely amount to a self-ban.

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: He needed a piece, found a text, (or was given it), and wrote it out. Your assumption is totally unwarranted. 

Wait, my assumption is that he's just writing his upbringing. You're assuming his Christian faith had nothing to do with it. So we both hold assumptions, but I'm pretty sure mine stand on steadier ground.

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: He needed something to fill out a service, just like countless others.
I might not doubt his faith, but I know of no reason to assume his work-product or even occupation was in any way the result of any "faith".

So I'd asked you for any sources, and you clearly have none, else you would present them.

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Why is a Lutheran writing Catholic masses ?

It's almost like you're ignorant of the fact that Lutherans hold Mass as well.

This is a Bucky-can't-be-wrong moment, rather than you just simply listening to an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I'd feel sorry for you, but you're making your own unhappiness by not being able to listen.

Thankfully, that's not a me-problem.

Historian Tom Holland argues that the concept of human dignity and existential equality come out of the Christian tradition.

Which is poppycock perspective, especially showing an ignorance in anthropology.

(July 27, 2023 at 12:21 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's not "fair". You obviously don't know any church musicians, and me, I know too many.  

You're wrong here. My mom, who turned me onto Bach in the first place, played organ in her church from eleven to eighteen, when she married. And having myself sang choir in church as a youth, I knew pianists, organists, and guitarists who played for services. This is you trying to chest-thump when you don't know your ass from third base about your interlocutor.

You should probably limit yourself to posting about things you know about, but that would likely amount to a self-ban.

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: He needed a piece, found a text, (or was given it), and wrote it out. Your assumption is totally unwarranted. 

Wait, my assumption is that he's just writing his upbringing. You're assuming his Christian faith had nothing to do with it. So we both hold assumptions, but I'm pretty sure mine stand on steadier ground.

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: He needed something to fill out a service, just like countless others.
I might not doubt his faith, but I know of no reason to assume his work-product or even occupation was in any way the result of any "faith".

So I'd asked you for any sources, and you clearly have none, else you would present them.

(July 26, 2023 at 8:55 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Why is a Lutheran writing Catholic masses ?

It's almost like you're ignorant of the fact that Lutherans hold Mass as well.

This is a Bucky-can't-be-wrong moment, rather than you just simply listening to an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I'd feel sorry for you, but you're making your own unhappiness by not being able to listen.

Thankfully, that's not a me-problem.

Of course, here we have Thump constantly dishing out unasked-for advice. He can't help himself. He always knows best. Forgive me, I forgot you always know best.
I knew it was a bad idea to even have any interaction with you. I knew it was going to turn into yet another incidence of your telling someone they were wrong and that (of course) you know better. There are countless examples of AD, it's one of the reasons I left. Every time I signed on, you're fighting with someone.
What your mom did or didn't do has absolutely nothing to do with whether Bach was inspired just by music itself or by some faith ... which you absolutely know nothing about. Of *course* yours are on steadier ground. Aren't they fucking always. YOU have no sources either. So he went to Lutheran school as a child, LOL, and that proves what ? The Lutherans don't have "mass" AND the liturgy for their Eucharist is TOTALLY different than Catholic mass. You actually know nothing about either. Look it up. No, it's just another Thump of course always has to be right. No one is allowed to disagree with you. ta ta You're on ignore, where you always should have been.

You have no freaking way of knowing what his motivation was for any specific piece of music.
Most likely, his motivation was the money. He was far from rich, and he had a ton of kids.
"Johann Sebastian Bach had two wives and a total of 20 children."
"Bach was definitely not rich, nor wealthy. He had the payment from his job plus more income from performing at weddings, anniversaries and funerals".
He worked his ass off, because he had to. Money was most likely the motivation for everything he did.

These composers explicitly rejected the notion of any gods or religious dogma.
They all wrote religious music :Bartok, Beethoven, Berlioz, Bizet, Brahms, Debussy, Delius, Kabalevsky, Khachaturian, Mahler, Maxwell Davies, Mozart, Orff, Paganini, Prokofiev, Ravel, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rorem, Rubinstein, Anton, Saint-Saens, Schubert, Schumann, Shostakovich, Sibelius, Smyth, Strauss, Richard, Tchaikovsky, Vaughan Williams, (also worked for the Church of England), Virgil Thomson, Verdi, Wagner

Quote:Historian Tom Holland argues that the concept of human dignity and existential equality come out of the Christian tradition.

Tom Holland needs to lay off the booze as those concepts are freaking ancient