I find it odd that your POV is such that someone who has no social issues and has been told repeatedly they are ugly, isn't hindered in dating by their looks but by their belief that their looks are a hindrance.

That seems to me to be stacking the deck in such a way to simply not even allow for the possibility that looks can be the thing hindering someone's ability to date. And that seems illegitimate and even cruel to such people.

What makes you believe this?

There's always a great deal to unpack when it comes to the individual who allows himself to be defined by others. But the main focus is how the individual somehow never managed to rise to the point of not caring what others think.

(September 10, 2023 at 3:20 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I typed ugly people into Google and got various images.  This is a typical example, and I expect most would acknowledge he was at least below average looking if not ugly:



Lets imagine rhat unlike a celebrity he's 5'4, low income, average IQ, average personality, somewhat autistic, average social skills.  I'd say he was going to really struggle in dating.

Good presentation, good skills, good fashion, he can still work on all these. Most of us have struggled in dating, good looks or not. It's not just his problem.

That may have also been just one unflattering image of him. And he normally looks better than that. So also something to keep in mind.

Furthermore, this isn't commonly the case with self-proclaimed incels anyway.

And yet even furthermore, he might actually be in a relationship anyway, for all we know.

(September 10, 2023 at 3:50 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I find it odd that your POV is such that someone who has no social issues and has been told repeatedly they are ugly, isn't hindered in dating by their looks but by their belief that their looks are a hindrance.  

That seems to me to be stacking the deck in such a way to simply not even allow for the possibility that looks can be the thing hindering someone's ability to date.  And that seems illegitimate and even cruel to such people.

What makes you believe this?

Observations. Repeated observations. Time and time again. People who aren't conventionally attractive find themselves in a relationship all the time. Good looking people out there in their 30s and 40s who have never been in one.

Am I cruel for refusing to validate this toxic and self-sabotaging POV that you might be so unattractive no one wants you? Then so be it. I'd rather that than say you suck in life and there's no hope for you whatsoever.

@Foxaèr
Only sociopaths truly don't care whatsoever about what others think about them, I believe. Most people will always care to some degree. And in dating what others think is the most essential thing, tbh.

What I mean is the mental prowess to rise above the opinion of others to personally know better.

@GrandizerII

He may well be in a relationship. The point is, though, is that he is ugly and that his looks will be the key thing that makes his dating life hard.

I do think that your view being such that cannot even allow for the possibility that some will be lonely primarily because of their looks to a cruel, victim-blaming form of toxic positivitity. It also suggests that you will focus solutions on things other than their looks, which I think k is doing them a disservice. Surely if you had a magic wand and could only change one thing to help them most it would be to make them good looking? I can't see any other action as being the one in their best interests.

(September 10, 2023 at 4:09 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: What I mean is the mental prowess to rise above the opinion of others to personally know better.

I'm not sure I follow you here. If you are by the assessment of the majority of people ugly and unattractive, how is acknowledging that truth anything other than a good thing? Is delusion a form of mental strength?

Unless I'm misconstruing something, you're stating that these incels think they are ugly because they've been told by others in their life that they are.

Most people don't allow themselves to be brought down by the opinion of others. It matters not if the opinion is true or false, because how we view ourselves first and foremost is more important. If these incels are believing the opinions of others, there's a deep psychological issue where they never managed to comprehend the unimportance of a shallow opinion.

When talking to incels and BPers, one thing that crops up repeatedly is that a key thing that makes them bitter and hopeless is the failure of others to recognise the truth and extent of their plight.

Often they are told that that it's not their looks but their personality that is the issue. Or that having a relationship doesn't matter. Or that they are guilty of some moral failing in being lonely and suffering.

I think it perhaps more appropriate, and empathic, to acknowledge the seriousness of their pain, and to see unattractiveness somewhat like a disability. I think the general response they get from most people to be unhelpful at best. And I think that lack of sympathy increases rhein vulnerability to radicalisation, which makes things worse for everyone.