(September 10, 2023 at 4:19 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Unless I'm misconstruing something, you're stating that these incels think they are ugly because they've been told by others in their life that they are.

Most people don't allow themselves to be brought down by the opinion of others. It matters not if the opinion is true or false, because how we view ourselves first and foremost is more important. If these incels are believing the opinions of others, there's a deep psychological issue where they never managed to comprehend the unimportance of a shallow opinion.

I think that many, yes, have been told they are ugly by others repeatedly and have been bullied, ostracised, and rejected on that basis.

I think that most people would be traumatised by such social ostracisation.

I also don't think it fair to see the suffering caused by the very real social consequences of their ugliness as simply a mental weakness on their part. We wouldn't apply that standard to racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism or other social negative impacts, I don't see why we'd apply it to ugliness. If I find it hard to make friends and have relationships, and face regular bullying and negative social treatment because I'm ugly, I don't think telling me my negative emotional response to that is caused by deep seated negative issues is going to be much help.

FF - you frequently mention people who are told often that they are ugly. Where is this happening? In the schoolyard? At work? Random people just walking up to people at the grocery store?

You seem obsessed that the issue is level of attractiveness.

Also, loneliness is not cured by a sexual encounter if that's where the 'relationship' starts and stops. You get laid, you feel better for a while, and you are still alone and lonely.

For the type of people I'm talking about, it is something they have been told in their homes, school, work, clubs, and pretty much everywhere.

I do think ugly and unattractive people really exist.

I have already noted that what, in my limited research, is required to not develop loneliness is: at least one close friend, at least one romantic relationship, social inclusion, and regular positive personal interactions.

Isn't it doubly frustrating for them though to see others who they consider less attractive than themselves constantly scoring with intimacy and relationships?

What are they really being gaslit about? That it makes people, particularly women, feel unsafe, when a man talks about them and to them as if they owe him sex? That a lot of women will overlook that behavior if the man is attractive to them physically and presents the idea that "nice guys finish last" or "women love bad boys"? And that unattractive men who treat women like people and bond with them as partners will score higher than a neckbeard who might be slightly more attractive but still spouts dangerous rhetoric?

Have you properly thought through the causation? Or are you buying into incel rhetoric of "woe is me; i need a wife who can't divorce me."?

(September 10, 2023 at 4:30 pm)zwanzig Wrote: Isn't it doubly frustrating for them though to see others who they consider less attractive than themselves constantly scoring with intimacy and relationships?

What are they really being gaslit about? That it makes people, particularly women, feel unsafe, when a man talks about them and to them as if they owe him sex? That a lot of women will overlook that behavior if the man is attractive to them physically and presents the idea that "nice guys finish last" or "women love bad boys"? And that unattractive men who treat women like people and bond with them as partners will score higher than a neckbeard who might be slightly more attractive but still spouts dangerous rhetoric?

Have you properly thought through the causation? Or are you buying into incel rhetoric or "woe is me; i need a wife who can't divorce me."?

I don't think they've seen, or often seen, people less attractive than themselves in relationships.

All the other things I agree are bad,but I'm talking about people struggling because of looks not because of any sexist or horrible belief. Plenty of people with terrible attitudes and beliefs has success in dating.

Plenty of ugly people have success in dating too.

Didn't you have a small town thread?

I think this is reaching troll level bullshit.

(September 10, 2023 at 4:12 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: @GrandizerII

He may well be in a relationship.  The point is, though, is that he is ugly and that his looks will be the key thing that makes his dating life hard.

I do think that your view being such that cannot even allow for the possibility that some will be lonely primarily because of their looks to a cruel, victim-blaming form of toxic positivitity.  It also suggests that you will focus solutions on things other than their looks, which I think k is doing them a disservice.  Surely if you had a magic wand and could only change one thing to help them most it would be to make them good looking? I can't see any other action as being the one in their best interests.

Have we gotten so soft the past couple of decades that if we're saying it's not their looks that's hindering them from a relationship but their mindset, then this becomes victim-blaming and cruel?

And no, if I had a magic wand, I'd fix their mindset first thing. Because that's more important to fix. You're operating on the assumption that the central premise of Black Pillism is true, while I'm not. And I have stated why already.

I think it's just easy to blame one's failures on one's looks or whatever else they feel they can't control at all than on something they can do something about. Because that would mean they would have to accept they are the ones failing, not something attached to them. And people generally have a hard time accepting that.

(September 10, 2023 at 4:35 pm)zwanzig Wrote: Plenty of ugly people have success in dating too.

Didn't you have a small town thread?

Some ugly people do. I agree. But I think ugly people struggle with dating far more than good looking people, and I think some are so ugly they are plausibly unlikely to form relationships unless something changes.

Yes, I have a small town gay scene thread also.

(September 10, 2023 at 4:35 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I think this is reaching troll level bullshit.

Which lies do you think I've told so far?