(September 14, 2023 at 6:17 am)Data Wrote:

(September 14, 2023 at 5:38 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: How would you identify, then, please?

Contextually, I'm a Bible student and believer. Theist, practical, spiritual. A bit of an asshole, really. Not terribly bright. Boring . . . uh, well, that's enough, I suppose. Oh, former practicing homosexual, liar, thief. Felon. Artist, musician, retired. Just the usual nonsense that is part of the human experience in the modern day smoky ruins of a sinful world.

ETA: I forgot the most important, to me; fair and skeptical.

Your higher power/slave owner must be proud 

(September 14, 2023 at 3:33 am)Data Wrote:

(September 14, 2023 at 1:00 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Can you give some more details as to why/what makes the most sense in Christianity?

I don't specifically concern myself with Christian tradition as I do specifically the Bible itself. So, most of what I see in traditional religious teachings is to me, almost pure nonsense. The trinity from Plato, immortal soul from Socrates, hell from Dante and Milton, cross from Constantine, Easter from Astarte (Ishtar), Christmas from Saturnalia and Dickens, the rapture from Darby - all religious nonsense to me. And not supported by scripture. Alexander the Great had a tremendously influential impact on Jewish thinking after 332 BCE and Constantine the Great on Christianity after 325 CE.  Much earlier Babylonian teachings influenced Greek philosophy over time and it was introduced into theological traditions from there. 

So, the teachings of the Bible without that influence is what seems more practical and sensible than theology will allow. God isn't omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or a trinity. A god is simply anything or anyone mighty/venerated, Hell is the common grave of man with no consciousness or moral distinction. the soul is the life, blood, experience of any breathing creature, it's mortal, spirit is any invisible active force, wind, breath, compelled mental inclination (mean spirited, broken spirit), people don't die and go to heaven, the meek inherit the earth, not heaven, the universe wasn't created in six literal days, etc. Bible teachings without pagan corruption.

That's all nice, but the Bible without pagan corruption doesn't exist. ("Corruption" belies a prejudiced view of how culture works, historically.)
Example : scholars always wondered where exactly Yahweh came from. 
When the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal was found by archaeologists in the 1800's they found their answer. The god Yahweh in the Bible is one of the sons (40th I think) of the chief Babylonian god, El Elyon. That is actually confirmed in Deuteronomy. There is a lot of Sumerian and Babylonian material in Genesis and the Pentateuch. 
The god of the Bible IS a pagan influence. Deuteronomy 32: 7-9  Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you. When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance. The Yahweh god got a portion (only) and the text has them "receiving" their god, ... but we know they wanted Yahweh for themselves, as he was the god of the armies, and they wanted help in battle. 

The Jews were polytheists (Yahweh had a consort/wife), but when the Levant became "Hellenized" over time, and the notion of "individualism" was introduced from Greece, 
the prophets began to insist on monotheism ... a cultural shift. If you're really a scholar, you ought to know making moral judgements about ancient cultural shifts is not what scholarship is all about.

(September 14, 2023 at 5:53 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: No. I'm talking about the Jews who wrote the Bible. And the beliefs of the Jews in the Bible.

I don't think you were. You were talking about Judaism, Jewish tradition that began to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures after Alexander III of Macedon in 332 BCE. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day, who were able to assume the coveted Aaronic priesthood in 70 CE after the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem.

(September 14, 2023 at 5:53 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: The story above is IN the Bible. It's in Kings, just like I said. 

The story was, but not your interpretation.

(September 14, 2023 at 5:53 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: The Jews (who wrote the Bible), .. including the story above, thought the "Heavenly Host" was comprised of many divine beings, but they were not gods.

Divine means god, deity, or something like it. It can be used in the same sense as holy or sacred, which basically means "belonging to." The Hebrew el and it's variations (elohim, etc.) mean god or gods coming from a root word which means strong. Anything and anyone can be a god/goddess. So, the Bible, Hebrew/Greek scriptures refer to mortal men, inanimate objects and spirit beings (angel, for example, meaning messenger) as gods. Divine. The heavenly host are angels, seraphs, cherubs. Jehovah God's army.
  

(September 14, 2023 at 5:53 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: You're also wrong about the shade of Samuel. Shades were not deceptive or demonic.

 

According to Jewish tradition? Perhaps, but not according to the Bible. So in the story of the witch of Endor, Saul had gone nuts, Jehovah and Samuel had rejected him. Samuel, before he died, had refused to talk to Saul. Spiritism, including being a witch or spirit medium was a capital offense. Against the Law of Moses. Shade refers to shadow. The spirit of the dead in pagan mythology. Greek underworld, for example, the Egyptian book of the dead. In the Bible the word spirit (Hebrew ruach/Greek pneuma) means an invisible active force producing results. The English pneumatic and pneumonia, for example. Wind (Exodus 10:3), breath (Habakkuk 2:19), compelled mental inclination (mean spirited) God's holy spirit (active force) or spirit beings. When we die, according to the Bible, the spirit (breath, spark of life) departs us. We are dead. Just worm food. There is no spirit or soul (breather, life). No consciousness in sheol. (Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10)

Witches, fortune telling, spirit mediums were all forbidden because they were deceptive - influence of demons. Spiritism (Greek pharmakia), the use of drugs primitive pagan people used to gain access to the spirit world. So, the traditional Jewish interpretation of the account of Saul at Endor doesn't make sense. Why would Samuel council Saul after Jehovah and Samuel himself had rejected him, especially through employing a forbidden practice with demonic influence.

(September 14, 2023 at 5:53 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: "The concept of a divine assembly (or council) is attested in the archaic Sumerian, Akkadian, Old Babylonian, Ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Canaanite, Israelite, Celtic, Ancient Greek and Ancient Roman and Nordic pantheons. Ancient Egyptian literature reveals the existence of a "synod of the gods".

Okay.

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: Viruses ? Are you fucking kidding me ?

Nah, I'm asking you a question out of curiosity.

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: What about them ?

They are invisible - submicroscopic, anyway. Invisible to the naked eye. Are they spirit creatures? Your objection is more due to creatures than spirit?  

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: They are not even "alive". 

Nor is wind, breath - are spirit creatures "alive?" Besides, what about the mimivirus?

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: They are parasitic.

Irrelevant.

(September 14, 2023 at 10:29 am)Data Wrote: The story was, but not your interpretation.

It says what it says, it's not an "interpretation, nor have you shown, word by word, what's wrong with it.

Quote:Divine means god, deity, or something like it. It can be used in the same sense as holy or sacred, which basically means "belonging to." The Hebrew el and it's variations (elohim, etc.) mean god or gods coming from a root word which means strong. Anything and anyone can be a god/goddess. So, the Bible, Hebrew/Greek scriptures refer to mortal men, inanimate objects and spirit beings (angel, for example, meaning messenger) as gods. Divine. The heavenly host are angels, seraphs, cherubs. Jehovah God's army.  

You do realize you just contradicted yourself.

Re "divine" WAS NOT LIMITED to "gods" in ancient Israel. That's what it means today. As I mentioned before, there have been recent writings from scholars that show that's not whet it meant in Jewish culture. How about you provide references, citations and proof for everything you claim. 
Where did you get your advanced degree in the subject ? Do you read Archaic Hebrew and Greek ? 

When the Witch of Endor conjured the Shade of Samuel, she was the only one who could recognize it. No one could recognize dead shades, even Saul didn't, and she said "I see a DIVINE being rising up from the earth". If you claim otherwise, lets see your analysis of the Hebrew.

The Witch of Endor, in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament; 1 Samuel 28:3–25), a female sorcerer who was visited by Saul, the first king of Israel. Although Saul had banished all sorcerers and conjurers from his kingdom, his concern about the final outcome of Israel’s battle against the Philistines caused him to seek the services of someone with “a familiar spirit.” When his servants told him of such a woman at Endor, he disguised himself and visited her that night. He asked her to conjure up the spirit of the prophet Samuel to tell his fortunes. When the woman reminded him of the law against practicing her art, he assured her that she would be protected. The woman accordingly conjured up a spirit identified by Saul as Samuel. The spirit informed Saul that he and his three sons would die in battle the next day and that the Israelites would fall to the Philistines.

The story of the Witch of Endor has excited the creative imagination through the ages and has inspired further embellishment of her practices. Chaucer, for example, in the Friar’s Tale of The Canterbury Tales, spoke of her as a “pithonesse,” and the 16th-century writer Guillaume de Salluste, seigneur du Bartas, suggested in La Semaine that she used a “flambeau” made from the fat of her own son in the necromantic art.

You're dead wrong about Sheol. 
Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".
Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"
All dead shades were thought to be in Sheol. 


Jewish Encyclopeedia : Sheol https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust").

God Its Ruler.
God's rulership over it is recognized (Amos ix. 2; Hos. xiii. 14; Deut. xxxii. 22; I Sam. ii. 6 [Isa. vii. 11?]; Prov. xv. 11). Hence He has the power to save the pious therefrom (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, the text of which latter passage, however, is recognized as corrupt). Yet Sheol is never satiated (Prov. xxx. 20); she "makes wide her soul," i.e., increases her desire (Isa. v. 14) and capacity. In these passages Sheol is personified; it is described also as a pasture for sheep with death as the shepherd (Ps. xlix. 15). From Sheol Samuel is cited by the witch of En-dor (I Sam. xxviii. 3 et seq.). As a rule Sheol will not give up its own. They are held captive with ropes. This seems to be the original idea underlying the phrase (II Sam. xxii. 6; Ps. xviii. 6; R. V., verse 5, "the cords of Sheol") and of the other expression, (Ps. cxvi. 3; R. V. "and the pains of Sheol"); for they certainly imply restraint or capture. Sheol is used as a simile for "jealousy" (Cant. viii. 7). For the post-Biblical development of the ideas involved see Eschatology.

(September 13, 2023 at 10:35 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 13, 2023 at 10:22 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: No. Humbly, she is not. She is incredibly well-informed. Neither inadvertently nor reluctantly. 
We have not detected, so far, "spirit creatures". We may some day, but right now, no,

What about viruses?

Welcome to the forum, Data. You seem interesting.

'Spirits' are usually defined as nonphysical beings. Viruses are physical. I'm interested in knowing what definition of 'spirit' you're using that would put viruses in the same category.

(September 14, 2023 at 10:41 am)Data Wrote:

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: Viruses ? Are you fucking kidding me ?

Nah, I'm asking you a question out of curiosity.

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: What about them ?

They are invisible - submicroscopic, anyway. Invisible to the naked eye. Are they spirit creatures? Your objection is more due to creatures than spirit?  

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: They are not even "alive". 

Nor is wind, breath - are spirit creatures "alive?" Besides, what about the mimivirus?

(September 14, 2023 at 12:01 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: They are parasitic.

Irrelevant.

There is no evidence anywhere of "spirit creatures". 
You don't get to redefine all of known reality without evidence.

"In philosophy and religion, spirit is the vital principle or animating essence within humans or, in some views, all living things.
Wikipedia

(September 14, 2023 at 10:29 am)Data Wrote: Divine means god, deity, or something like it. It can be used in the same sense as holy or sacred, which basically means "belonging to." The Hebrew el and it's variations (elohim, etc.) mean god or gods coming from a root word which means strong. Anything and anyone can be a god/goddess. So, the Bible, Hebrew/Greek scriptures refer to mortal men, inanimate objects and spirit beings (angel, for example, meaning messenger) as gods. Divine. The heavenly host are angels, seraphs, cherubs. Jehovah God's army.  
  

Exactly. The Witch says she saw "elohim" arising. You didn't even look at this did you ? 
"The medium says that she sees "Elohim" "arising" (she uses "elohim" in plural, but the apparition becomes singular in Saul's response) from the ground, using the word typically translated as "god(s)" to refer to the spirit of the dead. This is also paralleled by the use of the Akkadian cognate word "god" in a similar fashion."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_E...ed%20me%3F

(September 14, 2023 at 12:32 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Welcome to the forum, Data. You seem interesting.

Well, thank you.

(September 14, 2023 at 12:32 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: 'Spirits' are usually defined as nonphysical beings. Viruses are physical. I'm interested in knowing what definition of 'spirit' you're using that would put viruses in the same category.

I didn't mean to put into any category, I was just curious about it. It's interesting that you brought up physical as opposed to nonphysical. Oxford's dictionary says of physical: "relating to the body as opposed to the mind; relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete."

That seems more related vaguely to the soul, or more specifically the Hebrew nephesh / Greek psykhe. The Nephesh being life, blood, literally breather. And psykhe being used in Greek philosophy and modern day psychiatry, the mind.

I was simply exploring the possible correlation with viruses because we can't see them but we can see their results. That is ruach, pneuma. But I would say probably not.

(September 14, 2023 at 6:22 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Can you tell more about what type of god you believe exists and why?

The English word God was originally used by pagans prior to Christianity, (pagan means outside of, in this case, the Bible teachings) and comes from a root word meaning to pour, libate, invoke, sacrifice. The Hebrew el and it's variations, in fact any language, means something or someone venerated. From a word meaning strong. So, before Jehovah created anything he wasn't a god. Can't be a god if there's no one to venerate you. Can't be a subjective term like strong with nothing to compare it with. Jehovah became God to the Israelites. The name Israel means to contend, grapple, wrestle with God. God preserves. Jacob became Israel after wrestling with the God, represented by an angel. Michael. Angel means messenger. Michael means who is like God? Jehovah means creator. Causes to become.

Though Jehovah, I believe, exists, a god doesn't have to exist. It doesn't have to be supernatural, or a creator.

Why do I believe? Well, it isn't by choice, nor is it unfounded. I was raised in an atheist/irreligious family. I hated religion, limited as my perspective was, exposed to the small Midwestern town backwater, stump jumpin' gibber speak, hypocrisy and self-righteousness of "Christians." Out of curiosity I started to intensely study the Bible and it made more sense to me than anything else I had ever encountered. Which isn't saying much, but by comparison the Bible was phenomenal, in my opinion, and through it I gradually developed faith, complete trust, in Jehovah.    

(September 14, 2023 at 6:22 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: And also what you mean by believing the bible and why?

The Bible is the fallible uninspired translation of the infallible inspired word of Jehovah God. Like I said, it made sense to me.  

(September 14, 2023 at 6:22 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Regarding being a former gay, there's a thread on sexual fluidity about people whose sexuality changes in adult life.  It'd be cool if you shared your story of how you changed from gay to whatever you are now there.  Unless you just meant you're now celibate, but no worries.

I did mean celibate, but thanks for the invitation. I'm still homosexual, of course, I don't think that changes, I just don't indulge anymore. Though that took me a long time. For many years after becoming a believer I chose homosexuality, drink, drugs, and all of the aforementioned "fun" things I used to do.