(April 6, 2025 at 5:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Paley’s watch is broken.

Boru

Maybe if he stopped losing it everywhere for people to find

I have evidence that we're all living in the fingernail of a ginormous.





I don't know if it was designed, that was outside of ginormous fingernail time and space.

This shit again? Haven't you derailed enough threads Drew? Or do all of your posts require some Higher Cause to start a thread first?

A small subset of things Drew can't do:

• Show that the universe had a beginning. It may well be past-eternal.
  
• Show that the universe had a cause. It may well be accidental.
  
• Show that the universe didn't evolve. We know that you don't like this solution to "fine-tuning" but the Evolving Universe Hypothesis is a subset of the Multiverse Hypothesis.
  
• Show even a rudimentary understanding of how the universe works. You'd hope that would be the sort of thing that somebody would clear up before telling you what the universe was made to do and that it couldn't possibly do it in any other way.
  
• Show that the fundamental constants are constant. Hint: At least some of them are variable.
  
• Show that the fundamental constants could be anything other than what they are and that he isn't just marvelling that 1=1 therefor god.
  
• Show that no other possible combination of fundamental forces result in self-organizing systems that could give rise to sentience in some weird alternate universe where c is different and dark matter then interacts with regular matter to create shadow life. Yes, I know that sounds like bad SciFi, but that's what you get from suggesting that we alter fundamental constants.
  
• Show any evidence for a creator of any sort.
  

If the universe is "fine tuned" for life, why does 99.99... % of it kill us (too hot, too cold, no atmosphere, toxic atmosphere, radiation etc.)

(April 7, 2025 at 3:43 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: If the universe is "fine tuned" for life, why does 99.99... % of it kill us (too hot, too cold, no atmosphere, toxic atmosphere, radiation etc.)

Puddles fit the hole they're in exactly every single time, if they differed at all that water could not fit in the shape we observe, that must mean that those holes are fine tuned then? 

It's always funny to see creationists beg the question, and not even realise they're doing it. That certain fundamental constants of nature, and initial conditions of the universe are remarkably precise, does not mean they are created that way, why would it? This question seems destined to go unanswered. If the universe were fine tuned, or even created, this would not in and of itself represent objective evidence for a deity, again, why would it? This question also seems destined to go unanswered. Here are a few more...

1. How does Drew know any other type of universe is possible? 
2. How does Drew know the universe we currently observe hasn't always existed in some form?
3. How does Drew claim to know, that life different to the carbon based life we currently know of, couldn't have emerged in a universe, where these very precise and extremely narrow parameters of the universe we currently observe, might have been different?

So Drew, I don't know you very well, but from this thread, we've had your fairly strident claims, and some obviously fallacious arguments, now I have to ask, are you open minded enough to honestly address critical questions about those claims, and the fallacious arguments you used?

(April 6, 2025 at 1:54 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: If anyone is wondering about Orders amazing pm. It's remarkably underwhelming and doesn't contain any evidence.

Yeah, I asked too. Not even up to par with anything as sad as Kalam's Comical Argument. Pretty weak sauce.

(April 7, 2025 at 5:33 am)Paleophyte Wrote:

(April 6, 2025 at 1:54 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: If anyone is wondering about Orders amazing pm. It's remarkably underwhelming and doesn't contain any evidence.

Yeah, I asked too. Not even up to par with anything as sad as Kalam's Comical Argument. Pretty weak sauce.

All he’s really managed is to ‘prove’ to himself that God exists.

Boru

(April 7, 2025 at 4:43 am)Sheldon Wrote: So Drew, I don't know you very well, but from this thread, we've had your fairly strident claims, and some obviously fallacious arguments, now I have to ask, are you open minded enough to honestly address critical questions about those claims, and the fallacious arguments you used?

I can tell you -- unequivocally, categorically -- no, he isn't.

(April 6, 2025 at 4:49 pm)Sheldon Wrote:

(April 6, 2025 at 11:38 am)Drew_2013 Wrote: The universe and natural processes do exist. But they didn't cause themselves to exist right? 

Oh, and how do you know this? 

Quote:The evidence of a Creator is the fine-tuning of the universe for life. I just wrote a post detailing some of that.

Circular reasoning fallacy, you are begging the question. Please demonstrate objectively verifiable evidence that the universe is "fine tuned", otherwise I have to remain dubious. The fact we lack a complete explanation for the origins of the universe past the point of the big bang, does not in any way evidence your claim it was created, or required creating. 
And before you posit a deity, you would need to demonstrate sufficient objective evidence a deity exists or is even possible. The claim a deity did it, also has no explanatory powers whatsoever.

I don't believe the universe has been finely tuned, but even if it had, this is not in and of itself evidence for any deity, why would it be?

Read Martin Rees 'Just Six Numbers'. Highly respected scientist and an atheist. He thoroughly details the fine-tuning of the universe and it leads him to claim we live in a multiverse. Its not circular reasoning, scientists could just as well have discovered a wide range of properties and constants could have produced life...but they didn't.

(April 6, 2025 at 4:37 pm)Sheldon Wrote:

(April 5, 2025 at 2:22 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: I'm a theist but I'm not 100% sure. How can anyone be certain how a universe that caused intelligent life to exist was caused inadvertently by mindless natural forces? Do we 'know' such forces alone could do that? Do we know they did do that? Where does your certainty come from?

Natural phenomena exist as an objective fact, we already know they are possible beyond any reasonable doubt. You are the one adding inexplicable magic, from a deity you can demonstrate no objective evidence is even possible. And you are still, using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy by suggesting there is any truth to the claim the universe required a creator, because we can't offer an alternative explanation. Atheism is not a claim, it is disbelieving a claim, and it therefore has no burden of proof.

You've been reading to much atheist material. If I disbelieve the Holocaust took place, I don't have to defend that claim? If I claim the USA didn't land on the moon I don't have to defend or support that claim? Your atheism leads you to believe total nonsense. If you claimed the Holocaust didn't occur wouldn't you have to offer some alternative explanation for the millions of dead bodies? If you don't want to persuade anyone you're correct then you don't need to offer any evidence.

If anything is magical, its the idea that mindless forces without plan or intent would cause a universe with a myriad of properties, laws of physics that cause intelligent beings to exist.