Login

Leonardo17 · (This post was last modified: July 17, 2026 at 10:40 am by Leonardo17.)

This thread is a continuation of the thread called “A Basic Definition of True Faith / Spirituality” and the Thread called “How is this supposed to work?” in the “Islam” section of this forum.

Here I am going to try to explain how this oral tradition of the old Norsemen might actually be a description of the current crisis that we are facing and be a specific warning to our generation in particular.

Here is a link where the Nesir Edda might be found and read by the more interested reader:

https://sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/index.htm

1) The Gods are very real

Since antiquity the “Gods” are the to represent the ideals or some immortal ideas of our societies.

The eye of Providence or the Eye of Horus for instance represents the Universe itself that knows everything even if we can hide things from fellow humans and watches over us no matter where and in which situation we are. It’s a very powerful symbol even in today’s monotheistic Egyptian society.

Another example is Minerva (the Goddess of Reason) her hat is a Phrygian (Anatolian hat). In Greek mythology Zeus hits his head and she is born as Athena the Goddess of Love and War (with roots in the Middle-East where she was known as Astarte). In Roman time she becomes the Goddess of Reason. After the French Revolution, she is put in public spaces and in French coins as “Marianne” or “La Raison”. Descartes also refers to God as “Reason”:

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQW76RNm3i1mGU6hpTanVZ...ybNMo&s=10]

In this 1830 painting by Eugene Delacroix the same Goddess becomes “La Libertée” Liberty (The Same as Lady Liberty that was built by Gustave Eifel in 1886:

Than of course there is “Justice” and the rule of law. In journalism they talk about “La Confience” (a feminine word) meaning thrust. Than there are other principles like Equality (All men are created equal), Fraternity (meaning that humanity is one big family that does not allow any sectarian activity, social or political class or other group of people that has privileges and threats the rest of humanity as crap).

In a less rational and more Pagan manner I may also mention these “Forces of Nature” which are very real to me. In Athelstan’s Joutnal (2015) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4622118/

The Christian Priest called Athelstan explains how he still believes in Jesus (the White Christ as the Norsemen called him Smile

) but that he knows about Viking Gods.

I don’t expect everyone to understand this. But if you go and connect with nature in a regular manner this is a fact that is not hard to discern. If you see a huge rock you can close your eyes and try to get in touch with it. Another fun activity is tree hugging (really). If you make the effort you can feel this life-force that is present almost everywhere in natural settings.

So I may end this part with Neptune or Poseidon as the Greeks called him. You need to respect these forces. Once I was swimming very far from the coast all by myself. The coastguards even sent a ship to pick me up. But In my “I am a good swimmer” attitude I just sent the guys away. Then there was this current. So I didn’t drown (obviously). But it took me almost 2 hours to make it back to the shore.

SO the moral of the story is what every surfer or true seaman would tell you: You just need to respect the sea. If the coastguard came to help you, you may hop in their boat and if you get bored, you can always go back to the sea later if you want.

/I can also mention industrial fishing in many third world countries. These swimming factories are literally draining the sea of fish. There is no more Salmon in the Baltic Sea for instance. In many places, traditional fishers are merely able to make any catch anymore because Chinese vessels are simply fishing everything away.

So again: This is very disrespectful. Nothing “belongs” to anyone. The Greeks understood this but our modern society seems to have completely forgotten it and as a result: Fish is not even a healthy thing to eat in many instances.

II- Giants are also real

I am not an anti-capitalist or anything like that. But Fossil fuel companies knew about climate change since the 1970’s. Can you imagine: What if our governments had started acting on climate change since the 1970’s? Next good option: Carl Sagan testified in front of the US Congress on Climate Change in 1985:

Carl Sagan, US Congress, 1985

What if we had taken him seriously started acting on climate Change in 1985?

As a reminder: This is 2026 and our emissions are still rising. That’s because Big-Oil had paid scientists to deny the reality of climate change and just like tobacco companies in the 1990’s they did anything just to do business as usual even in thousands / millions would die as a result of their behavior.

Than there is “İgnorance” for instance. These are zombie herds who come upon you in masses. They know nothing. Think they know it all. And wave after wave they will just coming at you to destroy anything that is logical, more humane and simple enough for everybody to grasp. Because they keep coming this is usually a battle you cannot win. So when they come, the best thing to do is usually to abandon everything and try to restart things later Smile

So here is Giant number two. Another giant is populism. Since the end of fascism after WWII, it has become almost “fashionable” to be a racist, or an ultra-liberal, or a anti-LGBTQ+, or a bigot type of conservative. Again: nothing seems to stop them. France has seen its third heatwave this year already. There has been an unheard of number of forest fires including one near the capital Paris. And their N-1 candidate for the next elections of October 2026 is a populist woman who has been charged to a year in prison on corruption charges.

So demons do not do that. These are these dark forces. Like the urge for easy profit, the urge to dominate other fellow human beings, the belief by a group of people that they have it all right and others have it all wrong.

Last example: There are very evil forces operating in my country. Here we have a democracy that was created in 1923 by our quite remarkable leader Atatürk. And since day 1 of the republic we have had these “Islamist” forces who spent decades looking for ways to dismantle it all and go back to a more religious-oligarchic type of society that prevailed in the final decades of the Ottoman rule in this region. Today they take artists, philanthropists, journalists, professional athletes, politicians, scholars etc. all of this in a sustained effort to create a IRI 2.0 in this region that will serve their interests betters than a free and secular country.

So it’s not “Satan” who is doing this. We are sort of doing this. Because these are the Giants and the giants or Titans are very real too.

3- What is Ragnarök?

It’s simply a story like the Iliad or the Odyssey. A message from a Volva or seeress. An oral tradition (the Illiad was also an oral tradition before being written down by the blind poet Homer).

So there should be some sort of wisdom, perhaps a warning or some sort of teaching for us in this text too.

In Egypt they have “The Maxims of Ptah Hotep” that dates from the early second Millennium BC. It’s a collection of philosophical ideas and guideline for everyday life that was written to remind future generation about some basic approaches in life.

So yes, in some cases, ancient people need to tell us something. So what if “The Twilight of the Gods” is a warning about limitless globalization and free-market capitalism that is going to kill us all (and even our Gods) if we keep doing nothing about it?

What if we have (for instance) forgotten that we as human being are part of something greater? What if the idea that we own and are entitled to dominate nature with zero respect for anything than our own short term profit is some sort of blasphemy? What if this is a huge warning from ancient people who somehow managed to see that our natural evolution would bring us to this point at some level of our historical evolution?

I think this is very possible. And in the end, “The tree of life itself (Ydrassil) is going to die and from its ashes a new world will be born”.

And this is very powerful too. History is full of endings and new beginnings. So to me it means that history ends at some point (so does our disrespect for nature and other forces in life) and a more intelligent way of doing things will emerge (because no civilization can be on this path and hope to survive) Smile

Angrboda · July 17, 2026 at 11:58 am

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

Proverbs 17:28

**BrianSoddingBoru4** · (This post was last modified: July 17, 2026 at 12:16 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)

‘Seek ye not neither wisdom nor learning from the tragically long-winded.’ - Borudians 24:7

Boru

**BrianSoddingBoru4** · (This post was last modified: July 17, 2026 at 12:16 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)

@Leonardo17

Quote:

What if we have (for instance) forgotten that we as human being are part of something greater? What if the idea that we own and are entitled to dominate nature with zero respect for anything than our own short term profit is some sort of blasphemy? What if this is a huge warning from ancient people who somehow managed to see that our natural evolution would bring us to this point at some level of our historical evolution?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a wonderful Christmas.

You seem to be suffering from a literary variant of pareidolia.

Boru

Leonardo17 · July 17, 2026 at 2:24 pm

Angrboda:

…but there won’t be any conversation here if I was to shut my lips right? Smile

BrianSoddingBoru:

True. True… Smile

Another Point:

There are two very interesting movies to watch on Amazon Prime (which are probably available internationally): the first is called “Common Ground” (2023 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt27547378/ )

And the second is called “Kiss the Ground” (2020) which is also available on Netflix.

So yes, I might be in some sort of Pareidoia here. But please do not misunderstand my ideas as climate doomerism.

Also: Not everyone likes metaphoric / allegoric ways of thinking but as your quotations from the Bible illustrate: these ways of expression can be very effective in making our points can’t they? Smile

**BrianSoddingBoru4** · July 17, 2026 at 2:34 pm

(July 17, 2026 at 2:24 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Angrboda:

…but there won’t be any conversation here if I was to shut my lips right?

BrianSoddingBoru:

True. True…

Another Point:

There are two very interesting movies to watch on Amazon Prime (which are probably available internationally): the first is called “Common Ground” (2023 - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt27547378/ )

And the second is called “Kiss the Ground” (2020) which is also available on Netflix.

So yes, I might be in some sort of Pareidoia here. But please do not misunderstand my ideas as climate doomerism.

Also: Not everyone likes metaphoric / allegoric ways of thinking but as your quotations from the Bible illustrate: these ways of expression can be very effective in making our points can’t they?

I never imagined it was about climate doomerism. I was referring to your habit of seeing connections where none exist. The odds of Norse mythology being a deliberate warning to us about today’s issues lie somewhere between zero and none.

Boru

**awty** · July 17, 2026 at 2:47 pm

SSDD

Angrboda · July 17, 2026 at 3:02 pm

(July 17, 2026 at 2:24 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Angrboda:

…but there won’t be any conversation here if I was to shut my lips right?

Your belief that you are engaged in conversation is charming if wholly misguided.

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: July 17, 2026 at 3:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)

Imma give you the very..very...VERY abridged version Leo.

In norse mythology there are two tribes of gods that eventually came together as one. Aesir and Vanir. Aesir are celestial deities who rule from Asgard and concern themselves with things like war and law and political power. The Vanir are earth-bound gods ruling from Vanaheim and they're agrarian. Concerned more with fertility and magic. Additionally, there are the Jotun, from Jotunheim. They're not gods, neither Aesir nor Vanir....but pure chaos and primordial force...with the exception of one. Loki. Loki is Aesir by blood brotherhood oath to Odin.

Neither the gods nor the jotun always existed. In the primordial void, called Ginnungigap... fire from Muspelheim merged with ice from Niflheim and created Ymir (the first jotun) and Auðumbla... the hornless cow - who sustained Ymir with four rivers of milk. Now, the rest of the early jotun sprung fully formed from various parts of Ymirs body. It's weird, and weirdly specific. The first god, however, was revealed when the cosmic cow was forgaing and licking a salt block. Buri was not born, he was unearthed. Buri married the jotun Bestla and sired the first major gods of the Aesir. Odin, Vile, and Ve. The three brothers. Odin would become important....the other two...not so much. Before the others faded into obscurity, however...they would as brothers slay Ymir and create the world we know from his remains, killing almost all of the jotun in the process by flooding the cosmos with his blood.

After doing so, and strolling upon their creation..they came across two pieces of driftwood. Ask and Embla (ash and elm, male and female).....and the three of them each imbued something into them. Odin our breath and spirit. Vile our intelligence, wit, and behavior. Ve our appearance, our senses, and the ability to speak. There are reasons to think these three brothers are actually just one. Different aspects to a triune god. Who knows..this is forgotten to time. Now..as it so happens, almost all of the jotun were killed in the apocalypse of Ymirs death. A few made it...in some some stories, by riding out the blood flood in hollowed log boats. Their scant survivors would be the partners to the original Aesir. So you end up with phrases that, translated into english, sound something like "the progeny of night and power was a son of thunder". You're probably picking up what I'm putting down. Odin had many jotun wives, and Thor (and all the other Aesir) were a product of this. Vanir are a bit more ambiguous. They're treated as preexisting. They do ostensibly have an alternate geneology...and in some stories sdome of them get an explicit one...but by and large they're just the gods who were already there. Another important one to mention at this point is Baldur. He's the son of Odin as father god and Frigg as mother goddess.

I'll pause here....for comparison..... between what the story is saying (and/or how it's been interpreted by comp myth)...and what you want it to say. What you want is for the jotun to represent both big oil and societal forces, the effect of mans action in the world....however, this is Aesir territory and human territory, respectively, in the norse myth. IOW, jotun don't have shit to do with any of that. Jotun are volcanoes, jotun are tides, jotun are storms, jotun are all the things explicitly -not- connected to either the order imposed by aesir or the work done by man. In fact, jotun...jotun, primordial nature.... the main antagonists to that order, to mans effort. What you would need...for your interpretation at least, is for human ignorance, populism, and the aesir as political gods...to be The Issue. This is 180 degrees at odds with the story as told. ...at least so far......

Would you like to know more?

(I would point out that the story as told by Snorri actually did happen...just not in the future........but then again the norse cosmology is cyclical, past is future, future is now present-then-past, etc)

Astreja · July 18, 2026 at 4:48 am

(July 17, 2026 at 10:35 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: Athena the Goddess of Love and War (with roots in the Middle-East where she was known as Astarte)

Athena was not a goddess of love, and neither was Minerva. Aphrodite was the goddess of love in the Greek pantheon. The love-and-war dual role does show up in the Norse pantheon with Freyja.

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread		Author	Replies	Views	Last Post
	Ragnarok is upon us!	Cyberman	14	6166	February 18, 2014 at 12:32 am Last Post: Rev. Rye