Here's something I have wondered for a long time.

The ten commandments forbid idolatry:

Exodus 20:4-5 Wrote:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Deuteronomy 5:8-9 Wrote:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

St. John asserted that it was not permissible to depict the invisible god, but that it was OK to depict Jesus (as he was embodied in flesh).

That being the case....

How come Pope Julius II commissioned Michaelangelo to create his iconic "Hand of God" fresco on the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel?

Yeah, I know, he's the pope, and he's infallible on matters of doctrine - but how is this NOT idolatry? Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8 appear to be clear on the subject: one is forbidden from making any image of anything found in heaven (or under earth or water for that matter). EX20:4 and DEU5:9 are concerned with worship, which appears to be a separate sin.

How is that images of god, angels, cherubim, etc. are not considered idolatry? Yes, I'm aware of the division between Catholics and Protestants on this matter. I know plenty of Protestants who see no problem with keeping pictures / figurines / etc of angels and cherubim around the house.

This is a very good point, with a simple answer which theists will simply ignore.

Religious doctrine is garbage, and the pope does not speak for god.
Honestly, most Christians had better hope that the bible is bullshit, because they break the laws set down by it every day without even recognizing their sin. They would all go to hell, if such a place existed.

(do not wear clothing of more than two kinds of fabric, do not shit in your house- even in a toilet-, don't wear jewelry, don't shave, you must stone all gay people, do not talk back to your parents, don't divorce, women are subserviant. . . ) I could go on and on.

And then, to protect themselves, they come up with stupid excuses which they have no proof for, and indeed are sins themselves.

because, keep in mind, it is also a sin to claim to know the will of god.

I've often wondered how the excessive use of crosses and their worhip is not idolatry.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1b.htm

Quote: The church did not adopt the cross until about the 6th century (New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 4, p. 475).
The word 'cross' was later substituted for the word 'stake' in the rewriting of the Christian text (Crosses In Tradition, W.W.Seymour N.Y. 1898).
Christian archives record that the general use of the crucifix became ratified at the Sixth Ecumenical Council in 680 (Canon 82). The council decreed that 'the figure of a man fastened to a cross be now adopted'.
This new church logo was later confirmed by Pope Hadrian I (772-795).

Ok,Cthulhu, the bit you didn't high light, ie thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them, that's the important bit. Many pagans believed the statue contained the spirit of the god, was the god. A statue is a statue it is not god, we have more problem these days with structures that are not a likeness of living things, ie banks, political ideals, the god almighty dollar and people bowing down and serving them.

Leviticus, Deuteronomy are the old covenant, the old contract. Christians have the new covenant, the new contract. That is what the whole of Christianity is about, what Christ was about. No new covenant, then no new testament no Christianity we would all be Jews of the previous covenant.
Christians still have the ten commandments, but have a new interpretation of them they are viewed through the lens of love God and love your fellow man.


The laws are not there just to be obeyed, they are there for our benefit,

You don't stone people you love, you don't stone people for there own good, you don't stone people. Well some people do but they are just fucking idiots.

New covenant, huh? Then why do Christians insist on putting the ten commandments in public buildings?

I can't stand the "new covenant/old covenant" line.....

Shortly, we'll be made aware that some of the old stuff applies, but not what said believer disagrees with, as usual.
-God hates fags?..."Homosexuality is a sin!"
-Provisions against poly blend cloth?..."Well now that's just ridiculous isn't it?"

Yes, yes it is. All of it, old testament, new testament...both equally ridiculous. As a manual for life it's cover to cover trash that believers can only salvage by cherry-picking. By the by, seems to me that I've gotten things right the first time more often than god, who's apparently sitting on a 0-1 record in this regard...at the very least. Omni-whatever my ass.

(January 11, 2012 at 9:16 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Here's something I have wondered for a long time.

The ten commandments forbid idolatry:

Exodus 20:4-5 Wrote:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Deuteronomy 5:8-9 Wrote:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

St. John asserted that it was not permissible to depict the invisible god, but that it was OK to depict Jesus (as he was embodied in flesh).

That being the case....

How come Pope Julius II commissioned Michaelangelo to create his iconic "Hand of God" fresco on the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel?

Yeah, I know, he's the pope, and he's infallible on matters of doctrine - but how is this NOT idolatry? Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8 appear to be clear on the subject: one is forbidden from making any image of anything found in heaven (or under earth or water for that matter). EX20:4 and DEU5:9 are concerned with worship, which appears to be a separate sin.

How is that images of god, angels, cherubim, etc. are not considered idolatry? Yes, I'm aware of the division between Catholics and Protestants on this matter. I know plenty of Protestants who see no problem with keeping pictures / figurines / etc of angels and cherubim around the house.

Idolatry is about the worship of said idols. Only God is to be worshiped, like HopToad said we can make anything into an idol and the worship of an idol is putting the thing before God. Putting your freewill before God is idolatry. We are to surrender ourselves to Him.

So you think that people who wear these are worshiping little dangling hammers GC?



Now, if you would be so kind...explain to me how the above differs from the below?



(hint hint, it doesn't differ at all, they're both idols, meant to serve as a focal point for the faithful. Each just another trinket in a long line of trinkets, each representing a god in a long line of gods. They're only practical use is as social shorthand if worn over the shirt. We could call either talismans if you like, or charms. Doesn't make a lick of difference, they're identical in every regard. On the other hand, one is a depiction of a useful tool..the other a torture device...hmn)

Be less willfully obtuse.

(January 12, 2012 at 12:06 am)Hoptoad Wrote: Ok,Cthulhu, the bit you didn't high light, ie thou shalt not bow down thyself to them or serve them, that's the important bit.

I believe I addressed that. Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9 address idol worship. Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 5:8 address making idols. The wording to me is quite clear. To paraphrase: you shall not make idols, furthermore, you shall not worship them either. The wording is crystal clear, at least to me.

Quote:Leviticus, Deuteronomy are the old covenant, the old contract. Christians have the new covenant, the new contract. That is what the whole of Christianity is about, what Christ was about. No new covenant, then no new testament no Christianity we would all be Jews of the previous covenant.
Christians still have the ten commandments, but have a new interpretation of them they are viewed through the lens of love God and love your fellow man.

Convenient that you can interpret it that way. I'm not aware of any scripture that says anything in the ten commandments no longer applies under the new covenant, or should be interpreted differently. Come to think of it, I'm not aware of any scripture that specifically strikes any of the commandments in the Torah - other than a few specific statements attributed to Jesus.

I suppose it can mean anything that you want it to mean in that case - which appears to me to be exactly what christians do. The point being: who determined that this interpretation was god's will?

It's also convenient that some christians are quick to cite Leviticus and other books of the OT when it comes to demonizing behavior they don't like.