Since karma is what leads to good or bad rebirth, sorry, bud, you're preaching bullshit. It IS ethical as the buddhist sees it. Stop the apologetics: If you want to be a buddhist, fine, but don't try to sell snakeoil here.

(March 13, 2010 at 1:08 pm)Laurens Wrote: Greetings all,

I practiced Buddhism on and off in the past, and was up untill recently what you might call a 'religious Buddhist'. However in recent months I began to have my doubts about the whole thing. The attractive thing about Buddhism is that it poses itself to be completely free of the negativities seen in other religions, but to me given a dose of rational thinking it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Laurens

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to comment on Buddhism in general.

Like Laurens, I have problems with the original form of Buddhism. It begins by assuming reincarnation and that the goal is to get out of it. And that wasn't Siddhartha's original idea anyway. That had already been established in the culture in which he lived. This Buddha didn't invent the religion, he simply made it popular, and created a specific way of thinking about it.

I recently took an in-depth course on Buddhism and there are as many different sects and slants on Buddhism as there are on the Abrahamic religions. So it really doesn't even make any sense to refer to "Buddhism" without specifying which style of Buddhism is being referred to.

There is a lot in Buddhism that I find useful in terms of pure wisdom and personal development, but like Lauren I find it difficult to accept any form of Buddhism as a dogma. However, there are actually teachings within Buddhism that teach not to accept dogma and to only take what feels right for you. So if you follow those kinds of teachings you can basically make "Buddhism" into whatever you want it to be.

I like Deepak Chopra's presentations of these kinds of mystical views. I think he makes a lot of sense and he tends to steer clear of any rigid dogma. So he only addresses that more abstract concepts leaving much room for people to decide how they will think of these concepts.

I've actually moved on from Buddhism to a form of "Wicca". Some people might think that's going backwards. That's probably because of their view of something like "Wicca". I have a view of "Wicca" that is quite abstract in its own right. So I can morph Wicca into something that is usable as a spiritual philosophy without any need to be taking things too literally.

The bottom line with any spiritual philosophy is that it needs to work for the person who is contemplating it. If that's not in place then there's no point to it.

(January 30, 2012 at 8:54 pm)Epimethean Wrote: Since karma is what leads to good or bad rebirth, sorry, bud, you're preaching bullshit. It IS ethical as the buddhist sees it. Stop the apologetics: If you want to be a buddhist, fine, but don't try to sell snakeoil here.

All you atheists/skeptics/nihilists/minimalists/'believers in nothing' make such a big deal about rebirth as if it was something that really mattered and made a huge difference. It doesn't! Rebirth/Reincarnation is something that I never think about. I have no solid opinion of it one way or the other. It is the most remote, abstract and irrelevent part of buddha's philosophy. As Abracadabra mentions above, reincarnation wasn't even originally Buddha's idea anyway, as it was something that carried over from India in the Hindu tradition and culture. Karma only matters in the PRESENT MOMENT. Unfortunately, you are so hung up about what karma will be in 'next life' that you are missing its entire significance in THIS life. You treat other people poorly, odds are they will return the favor. You treat others respectfully, they will most likely treat you with respect. Karma is not hypothetical mumbo jumbo pie in the sky magic at all. It just says that we reap what we sow. Metaphorically, seeds of anger grow into weeds of despair. Seeds of peace grow into flowers of opportunity. And seeds of love grow into marijuana plants. ha,ha. LOL Have to keep you on your toes. But you get my point, don't you? Or do you want to continue knocking something that you "claim" to know so much about, but obviously do not really understand at all. If you don't study Buddhism, don't meditate, and don't believe in anything but in how much your meaningless life sucks, then don't say you know what Buddha is, because it just makes you look stupid and shallow.

(January 31, 2012 at 2:58 am)Bgood Wrote: Unfortunately, you are so hung up about what karma will be in 'next life' that you are missing its entire significance in THIS life. You treat other people poorly, odds are they will return the favor. You treat others respectfully, they will most likely treat you with respect. Karma is not hypothetical mumbo jumbo pie in the sky magic at all. It just says that we reap what we sow. Metaphorically, seeds of anger grow into weeds of despair. Seeds of peace grow into flowers of opportunity. And seeds of love grow into marijuana plants. ha,ha. LOL

Truly.

There can be much wisdom in Buddhism depending on the form of it.

I'm curious Bgood, what form of Buddhism do you favor or find attractive?

I've studied Buddhism in quite some depth. Although I confess to not having practiced it with the same rigor. I think my personal favorite form of Buddhism is Tantra Buddhism, and offshoot from Tantra that lean toward Taoism.

Although having said that I find all of the forms of Buddhism to be quite interesting. I do not today consider myself to be a Buddhist. But I still benefit from many of the concepts and practices that I had been introduced to through Buddhism.

So which form of Buddhism (if any particular one) do you follow. Or have you created your own personal version which is clearly acceptable according to some teachings of Buddhism.

I guess in some ways it could be said that I too am still a "Buddhist" even though I have moved deeply into Wicca. I have certainly brought with me many Buddhist concepts which are actually quite compatible with Wicca.

In fact, my views and practice of "Wicca" are quite controversial in Wiccan circles, (no pun intended). lol

(January 31, 2012 at 2:58 am)Bgood Wrote: If you don't study Buddhism, don't meditate, and don't believe in anything but in how much your meaningless life sucks, then don't say you know what Buddha is, because it just makes you look stupid and shallow.

And hello to you too.

By the way my meaningless life is great, I have a lovely family and a beautiful wife.

Why should I 'study'something to have an opinion on it?

I often that by studying something you can see things that arent really there. like seeing a face in the pattern of wood.

(January 31, 2012 at 2:06 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(January 31, 2012 at 2:58 am)Bgood Wrote: If you don't study Buddhism, don't meditate, and don't believe in anything but in how much your meaningless life sucks, then don't say you know what Buddha is, because it just makes you look stupid and shallow.

And hello to you too.

By the way my meaningless life is great, I have a lovely family and a beautiful wife.

Why should I 'study'something to have an opinion on it?

I often that by studying something you can see things that arent really there. like seeing a face in the pattern of wood.

The more I read Bgood, the more I realize how innefectual Buddhism can be.

I thought meditating was supposed to rid you of those hateful thoughts?

Bgood has outed the very reason that karma is dogmatic: It doesn't work but people believe in it so much that they get pissed off when people point it out as rubbish.

(January 31, 2012 at 8:43 pm)Epimethean Wrote: Bgood has outed the very reason that karma is dogmatic: It doesn't work but people believe in it so much that they get pissed off when people point it out as rubbish.

Well that doesn't make the doctrine rubbish. It just means that it's not easy to practice what it preaches.

There are a lot of good doctrines in Buddhism. If a person could actually follow them all they would indeed benefit from that. Just look around at how quick everyone is to put the other person or their beliefs down. This is almost becoming the standard trait of being "human". It's truly sad.

Christianity has a lot of good moral values too in the actual teachings of Jesus. Unfortunately far too many Christans just use Jesus as an excuse to beat people over the head with truly immoral and unholy crap from the Old Testament in Jesus' name.

In fact, that's what ruins Jesus right there. The mere fact that Christianity has nailed him to the Old Testament God. That quickly destroyed all the good things he taught.

In fact, if you study both Buddhism (especially Mahayana Buddhism) and the actual moral teachings of Jesus you'll quickly see that Jesus was most likely a Mahayana Buddhist. Even the New Testament has Jesus renouncing and disagreeing with the immoral ethics taught by the Torah.

So Buddhism is probably one of the highest sources of morality that mankind has yet produced. At least in some of its forms. Specifically Mahayana Buddhism which is the Buddhism that Jesus would have been exposed to in his day (assuming there even was such a person as Jesus at all).

But you can't put down doctrines based on people who don't follow them precisely.

Buddhism teaches "Right speech, Right action, Right thoughts". Therefore if someone is speaking improperly they clearly aren't following the doctrine of Buddhism.

It's just like Christianity or anything else. Just because a person calls themselves a "Christian" doesn't mean that that speak for Jesus. And just because a person calls themselves a "Buddhist" doesn't mean that they speak for Buddha or Buddhism either.

----

Ironically though, Bgood was actually RIGHT!

He explained that bad karma (i.e. bad actions or speech) can only bring forth the same. And that's precisely what's happening here. He unfortunately struck out in an act of frustration, and that "karma" (that action) is now coming back at him because he "planted it".

We sow what we reap.

It's a prefect example of karma in action.

And that's the very same principle that Jesus taught as well. Jesus was clearly a Buddhist. He taught that what we sow so shall we reap. That's the Buddhist ideal of Karma. Nothing new there.

And here we are witnessing it in action.

Oh, of course jeebus was a buddhist. I mean, he'd already done the jew thing, and xtianity was all new and such, so why the hell not. I've heard him called a necromancer, too, which is very nice, because then he can be a satanist, too.

FFS.

From my current reading one could say that Buddhism is just a spin off from Hinduism. Sort-of like "No Frills" version.

I still like bits of Zen ... I find the meditation very calming especially after I have had to deal with the religious.