(February 2, 2012 at 9:43 pm)frankiej Wrote: Welcome.

I have no interest in debating religion with you. So as much as I think that your religion is horse shit, I shall not waste my time.

However, if you want to talk about anything science related then bring it on, amigo.

Enjoy your stay.

Hey Frankie, nice to meet you

I am interested in science and I am always researching. Once I finish up some discussions I am sure I will take you up on your offer.

(February 2, 2012 at 9:16 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: No problem. It is the same in that there are minimum qualifications to being a Christian, namely that you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

Not everyone who calls themselves Christian believes that Jesus was raised from the dead. There are very many casual Christians out there, who are in the church for social reasons. Also, not everyone who says Jesus is Lord is confessing that He is Lord. Jesus said this:

Matthew 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There is a difference between saying it and living it. The difference is whether someone is born again. It's plainly obvious to a Christian who is born again and who isn't, but not so much to an unbeliever.

You and I probably couldn't tell the difference between a specialist in Jet Propulsion and an advanced engineer in another specialty, and it's the same way with nonbelievers trying to tell Christians apart. They can't so they claim that anyone who says they are a Christian, is. The bible disagrees as I demonstrated above.

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in god and Jesus, if you believe we are all unworthy sinners who will burn in hell for being sinners and not repenting, if you go to church to worship, and especially if you call yourself a christian, you are a christian. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck regardless of whether it's a Mallard, an Aylesbury or Peking duck!
As to the part I bolded, that's a little arrogant of you to say, don't you think?

(February 2, 2012 at 8:08 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: My proof is the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. I have several logical arguments that I could present but they won't prove to you that God exists. The bible says this is not an evidence issue but a heart issue with the unbeliever. That He has given sufficient evidence to everyone, but those who deny He exists are suppressing the truth due to unrighteousness. That it seems like a logical problem on the surface, but underneath it is a rejection of Gods authority because of sin.

Just because you 'feel' it doesn't make it so. I'm telling you right now, he hasn't given sufficient evidence of his existence. If he had, we wouldn't be here now having this conversation.

(February 2, 2012 at 8:08 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: 1 Corinthians 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

This is saying that, man, with all of his cumulaitive knowledge and wisdom, has come to know absolutely nothing of God. God, in His wisdom, chose to reveal Himself through something the world would believe is foolish. Why?

1 Corinthians 1:25

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

God is saying this to the world:

1 Corinthians 1:20

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

He is saying that the thoughts of men are futile. The bible also says this clearly, that all truth is spiritually discerned, and without the Holy Spirit you will never understand any of it:

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I personally know this to be true, because I used to believe it was foolishness too. It was not until I received the Holy Spirit that I could understand what any of it was about, or how any of it could possibly make any sense.

I've actually seen that video before. I would say the flaw in your reasoning is the same flaw in his reasoning; you don't go to hell because of unbelief, you go to hell because of sin. There wasn't one mention of sin in that video, and the way he portrayed himself was as someone who hadn't really done anything wrong. Yet, he is a sinner, and has transgressed Gods laws. He doesn't seem to think that is a big deal. I would say this, and his obvious pride, is a big part of the problem.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

I don't see any mention of sin in these verses......

Is your god really so insecure that belief in him is vital?

Quote:The contradictions are apparent, but not actual. It seems simple on the surface but it is actually very complex, and without spiritual discernment, you won't be able to understand it.

What were the circumstances of your conversion?

And there it is, the arrogance I've come to expect from christians. I don't understand because I don't believe? So what about when I did believe? It made no sense then either but I skipped over that because I wanted to believe.

I'm assuming you mean my conversion to belief? I was introduced to religion fairly late in life, and I prayed to be shown the truth. I felt the holy spirit too! Funny thing though, after I'd converted, I never felt it again. And I tried, believe me! Before you start in on the whole "You didn't do it the right way then" let me tell you, if believing wholeheartedly and asking sincerely isn't enough for god, if he would turn around and say "Well yes, you believed, and yes, you confessed to being a sinner and truly repented of those sins, and yes, you did pray to me with a humble heart and open mind, but you didn't use exactly the right words.." then quite frankly, screw him!

Quote:I'm not trying to offend you, I am warning you. If you believed it to be true, which would be more offensive..warning someone about it or keeping it to yourself?

If you really don't understand what's so offensive about it (not just you telling us that, but that you believe in a god who thinks that way) then I don't think I can explain it to you. I have no interest in worshipping such a sadistic god who would punish us for being how he made us.

Quote:As for me, no biting please.

As for me...... If you have come here to preach you will be asked to leave.

Hello, nonthinker. Welcome to AF.

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in god and Jesus, if you believe we are all unworthy sinners who will burn in hell for being sinners and not repenting, if you go to church to worship, and especially if you call yourself a christian, you are a christian. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck regardless of whether it's a Mallard, an Aylesbury or Peking duck!

As to the part I bolded, that's a little arrogant of you to say, don't you think?

No, I don't think it is arrogant because there is a lot of apostacy in the church. It is something you have to be on your guard about. The bible constantly warns about wolves in sheeps clothing, and that is for a reason; there are many people who masquarade as Christians on sunday and live like the world does on every other day. Many people will wear the mask but inside they don't know God or love Him.

You see ducks, I see an aviary.

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: Just because you 'feel' it doesn't make it so. I'm telling you right now, he hasn't given sufficient evidence of his existence. If he had, we wouldn't be here now having this conversation.

But you did have sufficient evidence to believe it, since you became a Christian..the trouble came after your conversion, right?

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

I don't see any mention of sin in these verses......

These were the first words of His ministry:

Mark 1:15

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

He clarifies it here:

John 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: Is your god really so insecure that belief in him is vital?

It's vital because of sin; not vital for Him, vital for you.

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: And there it is, the arrogance I've come to expect from christians. I don't understand because I don't believe? So what about when I did believe? It made no sense then either but I skipped over that because I wanted to believe.

It's not arrogant to say that no one can understand the bible without the Holy Spirit if it is factual. The worst you could accuse me of is being mistaken.

Didn't you talk with anyone? Go to church and talk to the pastor? Bible study?

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: I'm assuming you mean my conversion to belief? I was introduced to religion fairly late in life, and I prayed to be shown the truth. I felt the holy spirit too! Funny thing though, after I'd converted, I never felt it again. And I tried, believe me! Before you start in on the whole "You didn't do it the right way then" let me tell you, if believing wholeheartedly and asking sincerely isn't enough for god, if he would turn around and say "Well yes, you believed, and yes, you confessed to being a sinner and truly repented of those sins, and yes, you did pray to me with a humble heart and open mind, but you didn't use exactly the right words.." then quite frankly, screw him!

Well, this may be part of your trouble because faith is not based on feelings. I didn't feel anything on the day I gave my life to Jesus. It was only after I was baptized that I received the Holy Spirit. Though I did not feel anything initially, I continued to study and talk with other Christians and pray to God and He rewarded that. In your case, God was merciful and gave you some initial evidence, but it sounds like you fell away because you expected to have it all the time?

So, it isn't about using the right words, it is about a firm commitment and a relationship. How long did you last as a Christian?

(February 2, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Michelle_Patton Wrote: If you really don't understand what's so offensive about it (not just you telling us that, but that you believe in a god who thinks that way) then I don't think I can explain it to you. I have no interest in worshipping such a sadistic god who would punish us for being how he made us.

I believe what Jesus Christ said, and if I mentioned it I would be warning you like He asked, neither am I ashamed of God. I'm not sure why you are offended by my belief since you once believed it.

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(February 2, 2012 at 10:35 pm)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

Quote:As for me, no biting please.

As for me...... If you have come here to preach you will be asked to leave.

You can find a lot of sermons at sermonaudio.com. I am here to discuss and to ask questions and answer them.

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(February 2, 2012 at 10:39 pm)Epimethean Wrote: Hello, nonthinker. Welcome to AF.

Hello Epimenthean. Was Newton a nonthinker?

(February 2, 2012 at 9:33 pm)brotherlylove Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 9:22 pm)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Oh goodie *sarcasm

Another chew toy...yay

Hi BL

Here is a chew toy for you:



As for me, no biting please.

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(February 2, 2012 at 9:28 pm)Zen Badger Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 6:44 pm)brotherlylove Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 6:35 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Under your theology hitler could easily get into heaven.
Ps hi.

Hello there. Yes, anyone could potentially get to Heaven, because God shows no partiality between persons. It isn't about how bad a person you have been, because Jesus paid the price for all sins. It is about forgiveness and redemption.

So your god doesn't care what you've done, just that you worship him.
Rather unpleasant deity you have there laddie.

He cares what you've done, and that is why He wants us to repent from those things and turn away from sin. It isn't just matter of loving God, it is a matter of redemption and sanctification.

Sorry, but by your own admission Hitler could get into heaven. Acts don't matter, worship is all.
Very nasty individual there pal.
And definitely not worthy of worship

(February 2, 2012 at 11:32 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Sorry, but by your own admission Hitler could get into heaven. Acts don't matter, worship is all.
Very nasty individual there pal.
And definitely not worthy of worship

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Everyone is given opportunities to repent. It isn't like you could go out and act like Hitler and expect to repent later. Hitler may have been offered a chance before he took over Germany, but I doubt God gave him a chance afterwards. All sin was paid for but it doesn't mean people who do extremely wicked things are universally offered salvation at any time.

The giant quote blocks seem to be getting long, so I'll just do it this way:

"The bible says this is not an evidence issue but a heart issue with the unbeliever. That He has given sufficient evidence to everyone, but those who deny He exists are suppressing the truth due to unrighteousness. That it seems like a logical problem on the surface, but underneath it is a rejection of Gods authority because of sin."

I trust you won't think that was taken out of context of your reply.

So if you believe faith to be an heart issue and not one of rational evidence, what is the point of getting into discussions of this sort? Many christians believe that people only come to Jesus through the witness of the holy spirit, that only once the person has opened themselves up enough can the holy spirit move them.

So what's your endgame then, with discussions like this? Just spray enough verses and christian ideas at someone until they have a crack in their spiritual shell big enough for the holy spirit to get through?

(February 2, 2012 at 6:45 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Oh great, not just a Christian, but a "saved" Christian. Who now apparently believes it's not only his right, but his duty to come here and save all the evil heathens.

Like I said...he will be shitting in the middle of the floor soon and then leaving us to clean up his shit pile

It's called preaching guys...and I for one would like our xtian friend (read chew toy) to tone it down a bit and start to discuss these points he brings up.