Yes,Evidence it's exactly what I am saying.It's nothing more than self delusion and a form of brainwashing via indoctrination.Once you buy into the churches views on the gifts of the Spirit and see it's manifestation around you daily during service you begin to desire that gift so that you can fit in.Some churches even teach that unless you posses the gift of speaking in tongues you are not baptized in the Spirit but are still in the flesh.

(October 21, 2008 at 4:16 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Yes,Evidence it's exactly what I am saying.It's nothing more than self delusion and a form of brainwashing via indoctrination.Once you buy into the churches views on the gifts of the Spirit and see it's manifestation around you daily during service you begin to desire that gift so that you can fit in.

Very true, Ramen.

Quote:Some churches even teach that unless you posses the gift of speaking in tongues you are not baptized in the Spirit but are still in the flesh.

Woah...I didn't know that...interesting...very interesting.

I can believe it but I never heard of it, or imagined it.

It's true some Pentecostal churches that I have preached in during my ministry days used to teach that to it's congregation.I have had to counsel many a downtrodden Christian who felt that they were doing something wrong because they could not recieve the gift of tongues no matter how much praying they did.

They (the Christians) based themselves on Acts 19:2,3,and verse 6

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

If you are interested read the entire chapter to get some better insight on it.

(October 22, 2008 at 12:39 pm)chatpilot Wrote: It's true some Pentecostal churches that I have preached in during my ministry days used to teach that to it's congregation.I have had to counsel many a downtrodden Christian who felt that they were doing something wrong because they could not recieve the gift of tongues no matter how much praying they did.

They (the Christians) based themselves on Acts 19:2,3,and verse 6

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

If you are interested read the entire chapter to get some better insight on it.

I've only really read/heard of quotes from the bible, etc.
I'd like to read the whole bible - and maybe even the Koran...just to learn more about religion. But I find it rather boring to read too much at once - I'd have to read it/them very slowly indeed.
I don't have to read theology (if I've used that word correctly) to have reasons not to believe in God...it only helps with the immorality issue.
All I have to know is that God is highly complex and he's supernatural, so he's extremely improbable.
And on the morality issue, I'd say the fact believing in God is a delusion is what does the harm.
Theological study of the evil of religion, (which Theologians never seem to really address enough) is just about the details - and the degrees of its evil. I have a general sense of that anyway. And TGD has greatly enlightened that sense.
But the argument from improbability in TGD, particularly chapter four: "Why There Almost Certainly Is No God", - is what helped me the most on the problem of religion, - I'd say.
So I, basically, find religious theology(etc) rather boring to read, unless I just read it occasionally, - in small stretches.
I don't need to know much about theology to think God is highly improbable. I don't really need to read ANY theology to think that. Just as I don't need to read the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to dismiss Pastafarianism. If I ever read the Gospel of FSM, I'd probably do it mostly for a good laugh, lol.

I've read the Bible four times in it's entirety from Genesis to Revalations.3 times in English and 1 time in Spanish it was eye opening and enough to make me kick that fictional deity to the curb.The God of the O.T. is an evil maniacal dictator not to mention mass murderer.

(October 23, 2008 at 12:51 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I've read the Bible four times in it's entirety from Genesis to Revalations.3 times in English and 1 time in Spanish it was eye opening and enough to make me kick that fictional deity to the curb.The God of the O.T. is an evil maniacal dictator not to mention mass murderer.

Yes, and the God of O.T is just about as evil, sick and twisted as ANY entity could be.
But that is not connected with his non-existence. Satan is just as likely to exist as God. Yahweh just as likely to exist as Zeus.
The reason I haven't read the bible probably is because I've never really been a theist since I was like 6 years old, and even then I was partically agnostic, I certainly wasn't fundamentalist .
Am I right that I heard you say you used to be a Theist? As its obviously very common world-wide for Atheists to have previously been Theists.

I dont believe in heaven,hell,God,Satan nor angels simply because I believe we get all of these concepts from the scriptures and ancient mythology.Man has always tried to personify good and evil all it takes is a little trip through ancient myths and beliefs and you will see how true that statement is.I live in a simple natural world which in and of itself poses enough of a challenge to keep me occupied till the day that I die.I don't need religion to waste my time and make my life just a little bit harder by trying to live to the standards of a fictional being.

(October 23, 2008 at 1:01 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I dont believe in heaven,hell,God,Satan nor angels simply because I believe we get all of these concepts from the scriptures and ancient mythology.Man has always tried to personify good and evil all it takes is a little trip through ancient myths and beliefs and you will see how true that statement is.I live in a simple natural world which in and of itself poses enough of a challenge to keep me occupied till the day that I die.I don't need religion to waste my time and make my life just a little bit harder by trying to live to the standards of a fictional being.

I can certainly see where you're coming from - I believe I've been there.
However, I believe my disbelief in God is certainly much stronger and less shakey (but not unshakeable, that would be fundamentalist) than it used to be thanks to Dawkins' book, TGD. Particularly the arguments about Evidence, lack of evidence, the ideas of Russel's Teapot and the FSM....but more than anything else the argument from improbablity is probably what has strengthened my disbelief the most(to a reasonable extent). I know some people say "How can you strengthen disbelief?" But all I mean is that I understand God's improbablity more now...and I now think his existence is extremely improbable. So I don't think his existence is as probable as I used to (some months back), nor do I think his existence is disproved.
I 'just' think his existence is 'merely' extremely(probably close to infinitely)improbable.

I went to the FSM website I must thank you for it.I truly had a great laugh reading the hatemails from people who called those beliefs rediculous and were not aware how rediculous their own beliefs were.

(October 23, 2008 at 1:33 pm)chatpilot Wrote: I went to the FSM website I must thank you for it.I truly had a great laugh reading the hatemails from people who called those beliefs rediculous and were not aware how rediculous their own beliefs were.

Yes, its good fun.
Ramen.