Yeah, these people really don't have a good grasp on facts. But that's what makes this more disturbing. You can tell them over and over again the truth and show them the facts, but they won't change their mind.

I'm sure a lot of us are already familiar with that.

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Holy shit, the Stephen Hawking story get's better. Finally got Keith's explanation of it....and they...just...watch....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/...5#32380365

(August 12, 2009 at 9:33 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Yeah, these people really don't have a good grasp on facts. But that's what makes this more disturbing. You can tell them over and over again the truth and show them the facts, but they won't change their mind.

I'm sure a lot of us are already familiar with that.

---

Holy shit, the Stephen Hawking story get's better. Finally got Keith's explanation of it....and they...just...watch....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/...5#32380365

In times like these, words escape me... Even Olbermann looked like he was struggling to do it justice.

The truly sad part is that stupidity like this...ultimately...is not that surprising.

As far as socialism and health care goes, I have this to say:

Knowing what it's like to be dirt poor through no fault other than the accident of being born to two far-from-wealthy parents, I can certainly relate to anybody who is unlucky enough to come into this world without much to their name. After 20-something years of hard work, my mum had to quit due to depression. It was too much work and not enough pay. Now, my dad is the sole income of the household and has to support all 4 of us. Neither of my parents go out and our holidays don't extend further than our own country.

And now someone is going to tell me that it's my parents fault? That the means to earn milliosn was in front of them but they didn't cease it?

Let us explore the history of Doncaster. Used to be a fairly successful market town with good travel links and a thriving mining industry. Then, mines get closed down, everyone goes out of work, people are competing for new jobs which don't exist, the community crumbles into violence, drugs, alcohol and stealing to make a living, and suddenly Doncaster are above the national average in all aspects of crime bar one. (http://www.findaproperty.com/crimefacts....reaid=1119)

So, my dads side of the family went out of work and my dad had to quit school to get a job and support them. My mother on the other hand was offered a place in 6th form (age 16-18 once you've finished high school). She had to turn this down and instead start working to support her family. She had no chance to qualify herself and begin to prosper.

So, do we all have the opportunity? Do we REALLY all have that damned opportunity to get rich? Of course not. It's ridiculous to even claim such. I personally DO have the opportunity, but the cost of that is my parents working themselves towards and early grave for my sake. Not everyone is as lucky as I am.

For this reason, I'd be more than happy to pay disproportionally higher taxes to serve the people with less if I had enough money to do so.

As a Libertarian I believe it is the government's responsibility to protect the lives of its citizens, ergo public healthcare should be a top agenda. Private healthcare should also exist to cater to those who wish to use it. Whilst public healthcare will be a basic service (as in no perks other than good healthcare), the private healthcare business would provide those perks (such as private rooms, personal doctors, etc) for a price.

(August 13, 2009 at 1:08 pm)Tiberius Wrote: As a Libertarian I believe it is the government's responsibility to protect the lives of its citizens, ergo public healthcare should be a top agenda. Private healthcare should also exist to cater to those who wish to use it. Whilst public healthcare will be a basic service (as in no perks other than good healthcare), the private healthcare business would provide those perks (such as private rooms, personal doctors, etc) for a price.

Would this mean the rich people pay taxes towards a service they won't use, and then go on to pay again for a service they will?

As a Socialist, I believe that everyone should be able to afford the necessities of life:-

a roof over their heads
food in their stomachs
education and employment for themselves and their offspring
healthcare available free when needed
recreational activities
a peaceful and secure old age.

In short, the state should protect the citizen " from cradle to grave ".
For this to be realised, of course, Capitalism must be ended or at least the fat-cat culture has to be tackled and eliminated.

As regards the healthcare issue in the States, I have to smile when I read of the opponents to Obama's plan calling it both fascism and socialism!!! Explain that one to me! It also appears that they are telling lies about the state of our British National Health Service to frighten fellow Americans.....what a nerve!
Worst of all, a recent Gallup poll in America showed 49% of those surveyed showing disappoval for Obama's proposed reform. Are these kinds of people happy to see 46 million fellow Americans be denied a basic necessity of life?

(August 13, 2009 at 2:33 pm)LukeMC Wrote:

(August 13, 2009 at 1:08 pm)Tiberius Wrote: As a Libertarian I believe it is the government's responsibility to protect the lives of its citizens, ergo public healthcare should be a top agenda. Private healthcare should also exist to cater to those who wish to use it. Whilst public healthcare will be a basic service (as in no perks other than good healthcare), the private healthcare business would provide those perks (such as private rooms, personal doctors, etc) for a price.

Would this mean the rich people pay taxes towards a service they won't use, and then go on to pay again for a service they will?

Yes. In a Libertarian society there is a flat tax rate for all people, regardless of income. This tax is used to give the services that people need (education, healthcare, etc). If people want to pay extra for "better" levels of education / care, they are free to do so.

I would liken it to buying a car. If you are poor, you can afford a decent but low-budget car. It will get you from A to B just fine. If you are rich, you could buy the same car (it's still decent and works fine), but since you have more money you probably want something a little better.

Libertarianism provides a decent health service that attempts to give the best service it can for its budget. Private healthcare has a larger budget since it has high paying clients, and so can afford to give a better service, in the way of personal doctors, private rooms, etc.

Of course, nothing is stopping the rich from saving money and using public healthcare (it is open to everyone), just like nothing is stopping the rich from buying a low-budget car.

(August 13, 2009 at 3:12 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Yes. In a Libertarian society there is a flat tax rate for all people, regardless of income. This tax is used to give the services that people need (education, healthcare, etc). If people want to pay extra for "better" levels of education / care, they are free to do so.

I would liken it to buying a car. If you are poor, you can afford a decent but low-budget car. It will get you from A to B just fine. If you are rich, you could buy the same car (it's still decent and works fine), but since you have more money you probably want something a little better.

Libertarianism provides a decent health service that attempts to give the best service it can for its budget. Private healthcare has a larger budget since it has high paying clients, and so can afford to give a better service, in the way of personal doctors, private rooms, etc.

Of course, nothing is stopping the rich from saving money and using public healthcare (it is open to everyone), just like nothing is stopping the rich from buying a low-budget car.

All good

A interesting point of view on the protests against the health care plan:

[youtube]GX0LpvaJuZo[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX0LpvaJuZo