Funny thing to say, considering that freewill has the word "free" in it. If freewill is not entirely free, then you don't have it your just a slave.

I've often joked that if you gave me the power to torture and kill people in public within 20 years I could have the masses worshiping a fucking toaster.

"All Hail the giver of warm bread...the staff of life...Praise be to General Electric."

Religion exists to control the dolts. The purpose has never changed since the dawn of time. In the West, the churchies overplayed their hand in the early 17th century and got slapped down for it. All you have to do is look at the Islamic world to see what happens when they maintain political and social control.

(March 24, 2012 at 11:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I've often joked that if you gave me the power to torture and kill people in public within 20 years I could have the masses worshiping a fucking toaster.

"All Hail the giver of warm bread...the staff of life...Praise be to General Electric."

Only if the story goes that the toaster was born in Beit Lechem or more aptly put the house of bread.

Ouch!

(March 24, 2012 at 11:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I've often joked that if you gave me the power to torture and kill people in public within 20 years I could have the masses worshiping a fucking toaster.

Woah.. I never thought of it like that. You don't even need violence. All that is required is to 'show' the masses that the external being requires the internal beings to do actions {A,B,C...X}, otherwise the external being will punish them.

I know it's pretty obvious that that's how religion works but I've never thought of it as literally that black and white before!

No, I disagree. Violence is necessary otherwise the dolts will think you are not serious.

Xtians were usually able to find some undesirable ( Jews, Muslims) to kill. The lesson was learned.

(March 24, 2012 at 9:35 pm)aleialoura Wrote: Does your god not have a plan? Is he omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent?

He is.

Let me give you analogy.The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen - the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.

God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God.

What you are saying is that God can calculate the infinite delta streams of future probabilities?

(March 25, 2012 at 3:38 am)Darwinian Wrote: What you are saying is that God can calculate the infinite delta streams of future probabilities?

Sorry, I could not get what you meant there. Looks like some form of mathematics/science which Im not well versed with.

(March 25, 2012 at 3:37 am)Christian Wrote: God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God.

Which means that in order for your mythical god to remain omniscient, our choice (which he supposedly knows) is not free to be changed. Tell me, does your flatmate remind you to breathe? If not, I am truly flabbergasted that you are still alive being that you should have forgotten to breathe sometime in your life.