I don't know if he does or doesn't, his comment doesn't tell me either way. But even so, hell denotes a punishment for not believing, whether that hell is fire and brimstone or separation from god, or not existing anymore, I still think it's the height of immorality for punishing someone for not believing in you especially if this so-called God makes it a matter of faith and yet supposedly "gives" us logical minds that can say BS.

I never chose to be an atheist, I just stopped believing about age 13 then age about 40 (bit earlier) I finally realised I was one. I think you'll find most atheists didn't choose they just became it, indeed I don't know of any atheist who did so and to some degree that makes me suspicious of your claim to atheism.

Kyu

Well I didn't 'Choose' atheism, I chose non theism. I decided not to believe. So you are right there. I apologise (if you were talking to me ;P). By choosing not to believe in God I just rejected God. I held no other beliefs.

I have never been superstitious but I had childish notions acquired from the various wingnuts that I heard and read. Is that the same as your Christianity? There's all this shite about black cats, ladders, stars ...I accepted that de-facto.

(August 14, 2009 at 11:52 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Well I didn't 'Choose' atheism, I chose non theism. I decided not to believe.

They're the same thing, are they not? Unless you'rea talking about deism or something and non-belief in specifically theism?

If not, perhaps you could clarify the difference for me?

EvF

I suppose I was generalising. To me non belief is atheism. Being "without any belief" was my following state.

Kyu took me to task on my expression "chose atheism". As he rightly said, it's the default state and not a 'choice'.

I don't think either positions are a "choice". Both belief and disbelief are not a matter of policy. That's one reason why Pascal's wager is so full of shit.

EvF

Belief is necessarily a choice, so I don't get you there. You don't just wander into it. It's a definite change of mind from one state to another. There's no inbetween "yes there is a god" and "no there isn't". "I don't know" is still not "yes there is". (I could quote bible on yo ass but Iz too nice for that )

(August 14, 2009 at 11:52 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Well I didn't 'Choose' atheism, I chose non theism. I decided not to believe. So you are right there. I apologise (if you were talking to me ;P). By choosing not to believe in God I just rejected God. I held no other beliefs.

It was (addressed to you).

As Ev says there's no difference between choosing to be a non-theist and choosing to be an atheist ... what I was trying to impress upon you is that you can't really do that (well I can't at any rate and I'd guess that most of the others here would say the same); I never chose to stop believing in god, I just realised I no longer did. Over subsequent years things I read and debated reinforced that view leading me through a militant atheist phase to today's' angry atheist stance (they are different, I can explain if you wish but I'm guessing you'd think I was like this all the time) but it was an intellectual process (particularly after I stopped believing) that reinforced my lack of belief in deity and that's an important reason why I am unlikely ever to become a believer again because I could no more start believing again (without evidence) than I could stop reasoning. Even when I decided to go back to church for a while (in my late 30's) I still didn't believe in fact I remember pissing myself laughing at the singers in the church when they started singing a modern hymn/song called "Garden Of Creation" ... I kept referring to it as multimedia religion and replacing "god" with "Postman Pat").

But anyway, what I am trying to convey, is the lack of choice that I (and apparently most atheists other than you) ...

(August 14, 2009 at 11:52 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I have never been superstitious but I had childish notions acquired from the various wingnuts that I heard and read. Is that the same as your Christianity? There's all this shite about black cats, ladders, stars ...I accepted that de-facto.

My Christianity? Sorry but I think you have me confused with a believer.

Kyu

Maybe he meant when you were Christian?

??

EvF

That is what I meant evie yes.

Well with me it was a definite choice not to believe. I remember sitting outside a church in my car and deciding not to believe. A feeling of relief/ elation came over me. Not quite the emotional rush of the opposite decision (not that that means anything. My conversion 2 years ago was even less emotional, so I assign that zero importance).

Your angry atheist stance seems to mean beyond reason. I've been violently (in feeling, not in action coz It's not my nature) anti theist but I put that down to personal issues rather than logic. I've loved agruing theists as an atheist, nothing gave me more pleasure. I never wanted to be nasty with that (not suggesting you do), just logically coherent and arguing in a way that theists couldn't answer in their own logic. The mind fuck aspect is very interesting to me, although I consider myself pure rationalist over philosophical or superstitious, to qualify that.

More than anything I STILL hate the hypocrisy in Church life. I can't stand it and come out spitting on the rare occasion I get duped into it.