Quote:Ask them to tell you exactly what the 2nd law of thermodynamics is.

This is great advice Napoleon.

Ask people to define what they are so certain about. Goes well for politics too.

Usually in a religious argument, I know more factually about the religion they are defending than they do.

(March 31, 2012 at 6:42 pm)cdabamsworth Wrote: Woah...how the hell do I respond to that?

What is the 2nd law of thermodynamics? For that matter, what is are the 1st and 3rd laws.

(March 31, 2012 at 8:54 pm)Phil Wrote: What is the 2nd law of thermodynamics? For that matter, what is are the 1st and 3rd laws.

Great explanation of the 2nd law and entropy.

I see no way that it could mean anything other than exactly what is happening. The big bang was a far more perfect structured thing being disordered by entropy which is where we find our universe now.

The idea that anyone could claim otherwise is madness when we can see the different stages of the lives of stars and that like in example in the video things do not inadvertently build themselves. We know that things don't just accidentally build themselves and that stars will eventually use up all there fuel and 'die' that is the 2nd law in action in observation.

The 'order' of the universe is basically a convenient by-product of the continuing entropy maybe better described as an illusion while the further disordering of the universe is in progress. And yes that does mean the whole universe is in flux because it will slowly get to the point where entropy had completely disordered the entire universe.

This doesn't mean that any of the fundamental laws of physics are in flux.

Of course I am not a physicist so anyone who can explain it better or render my explanation to shame I'm all for it This is my understanding based on what I have learned of it.

(March 31, 2012 at 10:01 pm)Insanity x Wrote:

(March 31, 2012 at 8:54 pm)Phil Wrote: What is the 2nd law of thermodynamics? For that matter, what is are the 1st and 3rd laws.

Great explanation of the 2nd law and entropy.

I see no way that it could mean anything other than exactly what is happening. The big bang was a far more perfect structured thing being disordered by entropy which is where we find our universe now.

The idea that anyone could claim otherwise is madness when we can see the different stages of the lives of stars and that like in example in the video things do not inadvertently build themselves. We know that things don't just accidentally build themselves and that stars will eventually use up all there fuel and 'die' that is the 2nd law in action in observation.

The 'order' of the universe is basically a convenient by-product of the continuing entropy maybe better described as an illusion while the further disordering of the universe is in progress. And yes that does mean the whole universe is in flux because it will slowly get to the point where entropy had completely disordered the entire universe.

This doesn't mean that any of the fundamental laws of physics are in flux.

Of course I am not a physicist so anyone who can explain it better or render my explanation to shame I'm all for it This is my understanding based on what I have learned of it.

Entropy is NOT disorder. Look at a glass half full of oil and the other half filled with water. Stir the liquids together till you get an ugly mix of both. Let them sit. What happens?

(March 31, 2012 at 11:21 pm)Phil Wrote: Entropy is NOT disorder. Look at a glass half full of oil and the other half filled with water. Stir the liquids together till you get an ugly mix of both. Let them sit. What happens?

Just my primitive understanding. maybe could have worded it better

(March 31, 2012 at 8:23 pm)Begynol Wrote: Usually in a religious argument, I know more factually about the religion they are defending than they do.

Jehovahs Witnesses will beat yo' ass everytime quoting scripture verbatim. So don't even try, it's not worth it. You'll never win that one. BUT while they can rattle off any biblical quote, and do at the drop of a hat, be aware that those quotes are really nothing more than pre-conditioned, almost involuntary knee-jerk reflexes. Jehovahs Witnesses were trained – brainwashed – for years to counter argument X with biblical quote Y. But they have no real comprehension, no clue, what the real significances and consequences of using that particular quote in that particular argument are. JWs are virtual automatons: press this button and out comes that quote. Mindlessly. So all you have to do is ask them to explain their quote in the given context. And when they do (well, try) keep drilling deeper, keep asking why. They'll be stumped by the second question you ask*, turn around with their tail between their legs, and probably never ever come back to that guy who tripped them with their own quotes.

*Humorously: your questions and objections don't even have to be logical or rational! The JWs aren't, so why should you?

(March 31, 2012 at 11:54 pm)BoyWonder Wrote:

(March 31, 2012 at 8:23 pm)Begynol Wrote: Usually in a religious argument, I know more factually about the religion they are defending than they do.

Jehovahs Witnesses will beat yo' ass everytime quoting scripture verbatim. So don't even try, it's not worth it. You'll never win that one. BUT while they can rattle off any biblical quote, and do at the drop of a hat, be aware that those quotes are really nothing more than pre-conditioned, almost involuntary knee-jerk reflexes. Jehovahs Witnesses were trained – brainwashed – for years to counter argument X with biblical quote Y. But they have no real comprehension, no clue, what the real significances and consequences of using that particular quote in that particular argument are. JWs are virtual automatons: press this button and out comes that quote. Mindlessly. So all you have to do is ask them to explain their quote in the given context. And when they do (well, try) keep drilling deeper, keep asking why. They'll be stumped by the second question you ask*, turn around with their tail between their legs, and probably never ever come back to that guy who tripped them with their own quotes.

*Humorously: your questions and objections don't even have to be logical or rational! The JWs aren't, so why should you?

I hear exactly what you are saying, but they are such zealots that I find them repulsive. My wife gets pissed at me when they try to hand me literature and I tell them to go fuck themselves, but I cannot stand being accosted like that.

(March 31, 2012 at 8:54 pm)Phil Wrote: Entropy is NOT disorder. Look at a glass half full of oil and the other half filled with water. Stir the liquids together till you get an ugly mix of both. Let them sit. What happens?

It is interesting that you point out this misconception. I have accepted the phrase, "the world tends toward chaos" as the explanation for the 2nd law of thermodynamics that most people are familiar with and would assume to be true. I didn't learn it at church. I learned it at school.

Now you are pointing out that it is inaccurate description that is common to anyone who hasn't devoted at least some of their life to understanding physics.

Perhaps the same misconceptions are prevalent about Christianity?

Just a thought.

They've come back with "You say I have no grounds for believing in God: a great force that cannot be understood. However, scientists have long ago admitted that the laws of science that we observe today have been altered/violated by a great force which we do not understand. In fact the 2nd law of thermo proves that this force exists/has existed."

I have no idea what they're on about when they talk about this "great force". They honestly seem to think they're scientifically on the right lines, which worries me. Considering their statement is so vague, I've given up trying to refute it.

(April 1, 2012 at 6:31 pm)cdabamsworth Wrote: They honestly seem to think they're scientifically on the right lines, which worries me.

Don't worry pal. They couldn't be any more scientifically OFF the right lines if they tried.