Who's DIY?

(August 23, 2009 at 5:11 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: DLF ...

I've been thinking about this, the national health care which benefits everyone (welfare state) vs. your, "Why should I pay for your kids to have health care?" stance.

If everyone thought like you, THAT selfishly, no one EVER do somethign nice for other people, no one would form a project to help the underprivileged, no one would send missions to Africa to help them build schools because We'd all be absolutely selfish and absolutely obsessed with helping ourselves and our own.

That is the implication of what you were saying and I find that an appallingly dark and dismal future bereft of hope and human kindness.

If that's what you truly believe Obama is about (destroying your selfish US private health care system) then you can shove it where the sun don't shine.

Kyu

There are problems with this debate. The problem is that I think I'm the only American here. If i'm not the only one then I'm sure there are maybe one or two more on here. Most of you are from Canada and European countries. You can not expect America to be like you. I have lived in America for 26 years. I don't even know why anyone cares about the American healthcare system if they don't live here in the first place. I don't care what you do with your healthcare system. There are many Canadian people who come here for cancer treatment. There are many American who go to Canada for cheap meds. I don't love our private system. It's flawed and we need to fix it. The government could easily control how much doctors are able to charge for procedures. They could even start up their own for profit health care company that people can choose to participate in for a fee that is based on their income. That was what Obama talked about during his campaign. That is the reason I and others voted for him. We are in a recession in this country. The state of California is going to legalize marijuana for personal use to help raise money for taxes. The state of florida for the first time in history experienced a decline in residents. What this means is that rich old people have no money to spend on condos and million dollar homes. If the rich are being impacted by our recession then how in the world is it possible to think that we have the funds to afford to pay for healthcare for everyone?

I have to wait hours at the ER as it is. If we have free health care then ER waits will be even longer. I have a co worker who's father is Canadian. She says her cousins have to wait eight and twelve hours at the ER to be seen. How is that helping anyone?

I'm not saying we don't need charity. I'm not saying that people should not volunteer to help anyone. I am saying that the government or any other entity should not have the right to force people to pay for poor people. I donate clothes to Good Will and I have given money to reputable organizations that I know help people. When people in the community who have no money lose their home I usually donate money to help them rebuild it. I've donated to people who needed heart surgery who couldn't afford it. There's nothing wrong with willfully helping someone that needs it. In America we have a problem with keeping people up who don't need it and who can work. It's called wellfare. We pay families to have babies and do nothing. Ignorance is rewarded. I live in the deep south. People are under educated and poor and you have three types of people. Rednecks who work on farms and pay for their families, trash who have babies as a career, and then the very few liberal people who are unfortunate enough to live in the south. I get tired of HUD building houses for people who could easily get a job but would rather sell crack and have babies.

America is a huge country. Bigger than European countries and more populated than Canada. Every day we allow immigrants to enter our country illegally and become an illegal citizen. Our government wants to give them the same perks as our own citizens. I've looked at how to become a citizen of Germany and of Australia because I wanted to look for jobs there. They require you to go through an extensive background check and require you to denounce your US citizenship. They are selective. I can't imagine what they would do to me if I snuck into their country and started working there under the table and then got mad if their government refused to treat me the same as their citizens. I have no idea how many people live in America because the number rises every minute due to the border issues with Mexico. There is no way in hell our government can keep up with healthcare for all of the people in America and pay for their care. Our taxpayers do not have the money to pay into the system to do that without losing money. Our government is not making much money because just about everyone I know is laid off from work and living off of unemployment.

I'm not trying to be an A hole but I'm being realistic. America can not have a completely free health care system. It won't work. I have had this discussion with many Americans. My co workers, hair dresser, old men at the mom and pop coffee spots, my family, and my friends all are against a completely free healthcare system. Those people range in all different ages and political parties. Some even are religious and we all agree on this one thing. We want to fix the system...but we don't trust our federal or state governments enough to put our healthcare into their hands. Have some of you not seen what the American politicians are like? The American government is one of the most corrupt in the world! They lie to the American people to our faces and know we know different but they don't care!!

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(August 23, 2009 at 7:09 pm)bozo Wrote: d lf,
On a different thread to this, you said that the Democratic and Republican parties are too extreme and that what the USA needs is " centre " politics e.g. ( your example ) independents and libertarians.
How do you seriously think you occupy any centre ground with the views you hold?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you look at it from an American standpoint the Republicans are extremely conservative. The Democrats are the total opposite. Both sides want to take it as far as they can in either direction. Independents and Libertarians are in the middle.

Hey,

I know it's just a little point, but if I may point something our Land Fish...

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You keep referring to Obama's reform, and Canadian health care as "free". It is not free, if it was the doctors would be very hungry. Please try not to think of it as free, it is tax funded. You pay for it.

Not free health care. Tax-funded health care.

Thank you very much,
-Pip

There are lots of Americans here DLF. Pippy is American fro example. & I don't get why you keep going on about waiting times. In my experience there are none. Our GP's work on a needs basis, so if you have an emergency, you're seen quickly. At my local rural hospital, you go knock onthe door, the Doctor is rushed in immediately. We're 30 minutes from a big hospital... not much difference there. All this and selfish gits like you can also pay for better if they want to.
The non trust in the Government line is a pile of crock. All politicians are the same the world over. I can remember the last UK politician I thought was honest. Cyril Smith, a liberal that went from office in the 70's I think. UK politics has just gone through the mill because of an expenses scandal. Our politicians are always in the news with some scandal. That isn't unique to the US. We also have a huge immigration problem. We have the the remnants of Empire swamping us together with an open border for our fellow Europeans now. You wanna see overcrowding come the the UK. I'm sure we could squeeze you in. Yet we include these in free healthcare.
Yes the system is abused.. It's a balance you draw to catch those in need. You'll always get those who abuse it, that'll always happen, and you do your best to prevent it. If your child was dying in front of you would you try to save them or would you hold back and make sure they weren't trying to con you?

(August 24, 2009 at 1:40 am)Pippy Wrote: Hey,

I know it's just a little point, but if I may point something our Land Fish...

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You keep referring to Obama's reform, and Canadian health care as "free". It is not free, if it was the doctors would be very hungry. Please try not to think of it as free, it is tax funded. You pay for it.

Not free health care. Tax-funded health care.

Thank you very much,
-Pip

Yes it's tax funded and that's the problem. It's tax funded by the workers and those lazy wellfare people get it for free. Do you not have a welfare problem in Canada? In America we have all kinds of lazy families that haven't worked in ten years or longer but they have a ton of kids. It isn't free for people like me... but it's free to those lazy people. That's not what the working class in America wants.

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(August 24, 2009 at 3:33 am)fr0d0 Wrote: There are lots of Americans here DLF. Pippy is American fro example. & I don't get why you keep going on about waiting times. In my experience there are none. Our GP's work on a needs basis, so if you have an emergency, you're seen quickly. At my local rural hospital, you go knock onthe door, the Doctor is rushed in immediately. We're 30 minutes from a big hospital... not much difference there. All this and selfish gits like you can also pay for better if they want to.
The non trust in the Government line is a pile of crock. All politicians are the same the world over. I can remember the last UK politician I thought was honest. Cyril Smith, a liberal that went from office in the 70's I think. UK politics has just gone through the mill because of an expenses scandal. Our politicians are always in the news with some scandal. That isn't unique to the US. We also have a huge immigration problem. We have the the remnants of Empire swamping us together with an open border for our fellow Europeans now. You wanna see overcrowding come the the UK. I'm sure we could squeeze you in. Yet we include these in free healthcare.
Yes the system is abused.. It's a balance you draw to catch those in need. You'll always get those who abuse it, that'll always happen, and you do your best to prevent it. If your child was dying in front of you would you try to save them or would you hold back and make sure they weren't trying to con you?

That last statement about my child is a horrible analogy. The American taxpayers are not going to support a government ran healthcare system. The free loaders are ok with it. The taxpayers are the people who matter in America because we keep the system going. We have the credit cards, the house payments, the car payments. We are the people who spend money at local businesses and keep the economy up. We are the people who vote....and you don't piss off your voters if you want to stay in. The majority of Americans are not happy with this plan the way it is right now. The majority of Americans that keep this country going do not support helping people who are too lazy to help themselves. Most of us want any government handouts to be abolished and want people who really need help to rely on charity. Most of us are tired of the "welfare babies" as we call them and we would rather not spend more tax money to support their cycles of poverty.

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(August 23, 2009 at 5:35 pm)Meatball Wrote: Wait, partial birth abortion?

That's a right-wing talking point, not a medical term.

Yeah it is a medical term in that if you want a partial birth then you have to look for a doctor that will perform what is termed "partial birth". Doctors even refer to it as that. What I meant to say is I support abortion even partial birth. Basically I could care less when a woman decides to abort her pregnancy or what trimester it's in or if they have to drill a hole and suck out the brains or if she has to have it vaginally or whatever. Right wing Americans cringe at the thought of abortion especially after sixteen weeks. Most states will offer the choice up to sixteen weeks and after that it's termed "partial birth" because the fetus is too big to be sucked out and it's too big to give the mother a pill so she can go home and have a miscarriage. I could care less if anyone thinks I'm an "ugly American" especially if they aren't even from America. You cannot comprehend our system or why some of us have the views we have unless you live here and experience the American culture. America isn't just one people. We are so huge we have people who have many different ideas and cultures. Every state has a government and every state has a culture. Then you break each state down into cultures. I'm from Western Kentucky and Eastern Kentucky considers us snobs and "yankees". We consider Eastern Kentucky mountain people that are inbred and stupid. Northern Kentucky is liberal for this state. We constantly have issues where religious groups protest strip clubs and adult establishments. We have some counties in the state of Kentucky where it's illegal to buy or sell alcohol because the southern Baptists thinks that it's a sin to drink alcohol. My county is one of those counties. When you have a country full of people who are so different you can't put them into a box. That is why we have independents. It's not just right wing or left wing. People are all over the place with their views. One of my bosses is Christian and thinks alcohol is a sin and refuses to go to company parties where alcohol will be consumed. Yet they support gay marriage. Another co worker is just as Christian and believes earth is four thousand years old yet drinks and gambles. Two things that are usually considered wrong by christians here. This is just an example of how people may belong to the same "group" but share completely different views.

Quote:Do you not have a welfare problem in Canada?

Not really. Canadians by their nature are much more polite and self-sufficient, many, many of us will not go on welfare or EU unless we must. The only problem I see is that a lot of natural (born here) Canadians whine and bitch about "stupid immigrants" getting a lot of money for having babies and learning english. I try to tell them it is beyond rude to say things like that. That they should take it up with their government that is giving away free money. But no, no real welfare abuse.

What if you lost your job, your house, all the things you have because you're "hard-working"... And needed help. Would you still hold true to your "lazy poor people" theory?

Don't think of it as you paying for lazy people to go to the hospital (how dare they)...
Think of it as you giving a little bit so that you know there are not people giving birth in dumpsters. Unless you are unwilling to share. Up to you how you look at it.

Thanks,
-Pip

Well I'm an American and I would be more than happy to have a health care system like Canada or the UK. I am just a working stiff, but I would gladly pay taxes on health care for everyone! I will be first in line to drop my private insurance like a hot potato.

There has been talk here about the public option (Medicare for everyone) dieing and people are outraged. 77% (I believe) of Americans are for a public option. Unfortunately the spineless Democrats are trying to make the Repukicans happy and are dropping this and that and maybe even the public option. The Republicans aren't for any health care reform so I don't know why the Democrats bother with them. Dems have the majority in the house. The Repukes will say no to whatever bill comes their way.

I heard last night that whatever health care bill is passes, if one is ever passed, wont take affect until 2013. WTF? I'm going to have to put up with CIGNA for 4 more years? Fuck.

It's funny that dlf mentioned moving to Australia or Germany. Don't both countries have some kind of universal health care?

I don't want to move to any country due to their universial health care. I'd go for the weather and a good job. Oil companies in Europe and Australia pay Geologists more than in the states. It's all about money. I would make enough money I could afford my own private health insurance anyway. I'm not in anything for a handout! You don't have to denounce your citizenship if you are working in those countries. I could still be an American and live in either of those countries as long as I was working with a company based there.

I don't know where that 77 percent is because they sure aren't around where I live. Everyone including Democrats are against the current bill as is.

To Pippy: No women are having babies behind dumpsters in America and if they do they are a crackhead that doesn't have enough sense to get out of the rain. Every state has programs that offer totally free insurance to women who are low income and pregnant. They don't even have to be single and it covers all pre natal and post natal care. It even covers the child up to age two. After that there are state programs for low income children and it gives them health care and the parents pay a fee based on their income. It's a sliding fee scale.

People who work who lose their jobs are covered by unemployment insurance. The unemployment offices even help them find a new job. We have COBRA that allows a person to keep their current employee provided health plan after they are fired for a few months until they can find a new job. People have home owners insurance!!! That covers you if you lose your home. I don't know one person who has the money to invest in a home who wouldn't put insurance on it. If they don't insure their home and then they lose it in a fire then it's their own fault for being stupid. We even have flood insurance.

We have career welfare people in America. It's glorified by rappers in a lot of their songs. Go to Wal Mart or any other low end chain store around the first of the month and count the trash that's there and you'll see what I'm talking about.

COBRA is a joke. When I had my son and quit my job to keep my insurance threw the COBRA plan would have cost me about $1000.00 a month. That was back in '92. There was no way I could afford that. Luckily my husband had insurance threw his employer. Now Obama is helping out by paying 65% of the cost of COBRA. But COBRA isn't forever. They used to cut you off after a year. I'm not sure if that's still the case. Anyway thanks to Obama my nephew who lost his job gets to keep health insurance for his kids.....for now.

(August 24, 2009 at 9:38 am)dry land fish Wrote:

(August 24, 2009 at 3:33 am)fr0d0 Wrote: If your child was dying in front of you would you try to save them or would you hold back and make sure they weren't trying to con you?

That last statement about my child is a horrible analogy.

So I take from your answer that you wouldn't save your child then?