I'm going to start this post by stating this is merely an opinion loosely based on facts and I don't presume that this is the ultimate answer or even the answer.

But I believe Islam to have had a profound influence on the solidification of the European kingdoms and the rise of Christianity yet again (300 CE Rome was the first major growth...it was relatively short-lived) as the dominate religion in Europe (well even more than just that, the state religion again).

Why do I believe this? Well the European powers realized after fighting off the Moslem invasion of 732 CE, that they had to solidify their land under a more common banner (and also have their own troops...the soldiers who fought at Tours were seasonal farmers). The unified under a common banner to defeat a common enemy and saw the only way to survive was to stay united. They turned to a faith that was opposed to Islam and that was Christianity.

So you can probably thank the Moslems for increasing the power of the Medieval (after the end of the Dark Ages in roughly 800 CE) Church in Europe. Perhaps had the Moslems succeeded, our society would be technologically more advanced that it is now since the Moslem world was quite advanced in terms of advancing science compared to Europe.

Quote:Why do I believe this? Well the European powers realized after fighting off the Moslem invasion of 732 CE,........... They turned to a faith that was opposed to Islam and that was Christianity.

The Church had been calling the shots in the West since 476 when the Western Empire "fell". From 732 until 1095 the West spent most of its time fighting Norse raiders who followed Odin and didn't give two shits about jesus or allah.

With the Norse threat fading, Urban II came up with a brainstorm to get xtian warlords to stop killing each other and give them something else to fight...even though they lost.

How could Islam have affected Europe around 300CE when it didn't even exist until the early 7th century?

(May 18, 2012 at 6:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Why do I believe this? Well the European powers realized after fighting off the Moslem invasion of 732 CE,........... They turned to a faith that was opposed to Islam and that was Christianity.

The Church had been calling the shots in the West since 476 when the Western Empire "fell". From 732 until 1095 the West spent most of its time fighting Norse raiders who followed Odin and didn't give two shits about jesus or allah.

With the Norse threat fading, Urban II came up with a brainstorm to get xtian warlords to stop killing each other and give them something else to fight...even though they lost.

Wasn't Urban II one of the Popes following the Great Schism and almost 300 years after the Church gained prestige in Europe following Charlemagne's coronation as the first Christian king (or at least the first one worth anything of political significance)?

Yeah. Was not thinking of the Nords since even little was known of them until they started their raids...I was thinking of mainland Europe, aka the Germanic peoples.

Sorry. I meant 300 CE in Rome was the previous massive growth of Christianity...it's dominance was short-lived.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

I would argue the greatest muslim influence to western christianity came as a result of the crusades in the 11th century, rather than as a result of the initial muslim expansion in the 8th century. I would also argue that, rather than leading to anything like a solidification of christianity, both muslim and byzentine contact during the crusades planted the seed of political and intellectual eclipse of christianity in the west 3 or 4 centuries later.

Whether the world would be more technologically advanced today if Moslim conquest had succeeded in the 8th century is hard to say.

If the more advanced 8th century civilizations in China, Byzentium and the caliphates couldn't make the modern world more modern than it is actually is without conqueoring Europe, why would we expect that they would make the modern world more modern if they had conqueored the civiizational backwaters of western Europe?

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Great Schism...which was between Eastern (Greek Orthodox) and Western (RCC) in 1054 ( in which case Urban II would be after that date or the Avignon Papcy which was in the 14th century and pre-dates Urban by 200 years.

The Great Schism was just a pissing contest between the pope and the patriarch to see who had the bigger dick.

(May 18, 2012 at 6:33 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I'm not sure if you are referring to the Great Schism...which was between Eastern (Greek Orthodox) and Western (RCC) in 1054 ( in which case Urban II would be after that date or the Avignon Papcy which was in the 14th century and pre-dates Urban by 200 years.

The Great Schism was just a pissing contest between the pope and the patriarch to see who had the bigger dick.

Whatever the case, it forever weakened the Church.

In what way, other than ecclesiatic bragging rights, did the great schism weaken christianity?

(May 18, 2012 at 6:38 pm)Chuck Wrote: In what way, other than ecclesiatic bragging rights, did the great schism weaken christianity?

Well it actually managed to divide Christians and the Crusades were at times as much a conflict between the two Christian sides than it was between the Western Christians and the Moslems.

Now it is not nearly as destructive a break as the later Protestant movement would be though, mainly because the Protestant movement started within the confines of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church was in its own separate domain.