Something I've been thinking about is how our knowledge of things are unified.

When we see something beautiful, we have an opinion that is beautiful. If it's not beautiful to everyone, we at least experience beauty.

When we see something great, we also have an opinion that is great. But what is the basis to this perception?

Is it just a feeling that is not based on any reality? Is it without basis.

What I mean by "hidden", is that it's not really thought about, and it's only when you really think about it, you realize that God is the hidden basis behind our knowledge of everything.

I've seen Atheist make jokes about when people talk about God being the beauty in a sunset, the eloquence of a good poem, the love of the mother for it's child...but when people say things like that, what they mean, really is that God is the basis of the experience of beauty, honor, eloquence, goodness, holiness, greatness and glory in all these things, and this not a far of truth.

When we see honorable character, we see beauty and glory in that, but what is the basis of this perception?

What seems to the basis of it, is that is underlying eternal reality. Why must it be eternal. I will give you a thought experiment.

Imagine the Creator was neither beautiful, nor glorious, nor morally good. Is it possible then the Creator creates beauty, greatness, and moral goodness. The answer when thought about it, is obviously no.

It's not possible? Why is that? Because we know these things by their nature are eternal. We know it's not possible for these things not to have existed and then God creates them. The famous Euthyphro dilemma doesn't prove we don't need God for morality contrary to Atheist claims, it actually shows that it must be eternal or else would be arbitrary.

But what is that eternal reality? It's of course ultimate beauty, ultimate glory, ultimate greatness.

The nature of these things is not that they are something that could just came about. It's something that must have always been.

Here we go again.

Quote:Imagine the Creator was neither beautiful, nor glorious, nor morally good.

You would first have to produce evidence that any such "creator" exists. This is an atheist forum and you are not allowed to skip Step #1.

(May 28, 2012 at 10:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Here we go again.

Quote:Imagine the Creator was neither beautiful, nor glorious, nor morally good.

You would first have to produce evidence that any such "creator" exists. This is an atheist forum and you are not allowed to skip Step #1.

What I meant by that was imagine there was a Creator and the Creator was...

The thought experiment was to show how intuitively we know morality, greatness, beauty, glory, all couldn't just be brought into existence after not existing.

(May 28, 2012 at 10:40 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The thought experiment was to show how intuitively we know morality, greatness, beauty, glory, all couldn't just be brought into existence after not existing.

Why?

Quote:What I meant by that was imagine there was a Creator and the Creator was...

I think most of us got that and answered in the negative.

(May 28, 2012 at 10:42 pm)Darwinian Wrote: Why?

Perhaps due to their very nature? Their nature is eternal, and hence we perceive that is eternal, and since they derived from a necessary existence, they can't be in any other way but with a relationship to eternal existence as their basis.

We see eternity in these things.

Quote:The thought experiment was to show how intuitively we know morality, greatness, beauty, glory, all couldn't just be brought into existence after not existing.

A brief scan of history shows that barbarism is far more prevalent. Do you attribute that to your "creator" as well?

(May 28, 2012 at 10:40 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The thought experiment was to show how intuitively we know morality, greatness, beauty, glory, all couldn't just be brought into existence after not existing.

Wouldn't you say that all these things are evaluations rather than attributes? A piece of art may have color and texture and scale and any number of other physical attributes. But beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder .. not in the object itself.

That there may be some aesthetic universals is interesting (though not obvious). But even if there are, doesn't that point more toward what we may have in common as a species, trans-culturally?

(May 28, 2012 at 10:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Imagine the Creator was neither beautiful, nor glorious, nor morally good. Is it possible then the Creator creates beauty, greatness, and moral goodness. The answer when thought about it, is obviously no.

Do I have to imagine a creator with a capital C? If we're simply talking about humans, have you ever seen some designers? They can have terrible personalities, be ugly as sin and be on the whole quite obnoxious, but they can create the most fantastic and gorgeous garments, that inspire many. So when I ponder the question, my answer would be yes.

(May 28, 2012 at 10:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Something I've been thinking about is how our knowledge of things are unified.

Is it? I see no reason to think that.

(May 28, 2012 at 10:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: When we see something beautiful, we have an opinion that is beautiful. If it's not beautiful to everyone, we at least experience beauty.

When we see something great, we also have an opinion that is great. But what is the basis to this perception?

Is it just a feeling that is not based on any reality? Is it without basis.

What I mean by "hidden", is that it's not really thought about, and it's only when you really think about it, you realize that God is the hidden basis behind our knowledge of everything.

First of all, you are confusing knowledge with judgment. Beauty, greatness etc are not a matter of knowledge, they are a matter of personal choices, a response to the perception of things we have chosen to value. The "hidden" part is not god, it is your ego - the sum total of the convictions you live by.

(May 28, 2012 at 10:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I've seen Atheist make jokes about when people talk about God being the beauty in a sunset, the eloquence of a good poem, the love of the mother for it's child...but when people say things like that, what they mean, really is that God is the basis of the experience of beauty, honor, eloquence, goodness, holiness, greatness and glory in all these things, and this not a far of truth.

When we see honorable character, we see beauty and glory in that, but what is the basis of this perception?

What seems to the basis of it, is that is underlying eternal reality. Why must it be eternal. I will give you a thought experiment.

Imagine the Creator was neither beautiful, nor glorious, nor morally good. Is it possible then the Creator creates beauty, greatness, and moral goodness. The answer when thought about it, is obviously no.

Basis of what? Creator of what? There are two distinct concepts here that you are conflating. There is an object and there is beauty. The object is not intrinsically beautiful. Beauty is a value judgement assigned to it by someone who perceives it. Therefore, the creator of object and the creator of beauty need not be the same.

The answer to your thought experiment is "yes, it is possible". Consider this simple scenario. A child creates scribbles on the paper and the mother thinks it is beautiful. The child himself does not have concepts regarding beauty or greatness, but he is apparently capable of creating them. But that is not what is happening, is it? The child is not creating beauty and greatness, the mother is and she is attaching those values to her child's "painting".

(May 28, 2012 at 10:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It's not possible? Why is that? Because we know these things by their nature are eternal. We know it's not possible for these things not to have existed and then God creates them. The famous Euthyphro dilemma doesn't prove we don't need God for morality contrary to Atheist claims, it actually shows that it must be eternal or else would be arbitrary.

But what is that eternal reality? It's of course ultimate beauty, ultimate glory, ultimate greatness.

The nature of these things is not that they are something that could just came about. It's something that must have always been.

You are most definitely mistaken if you think that beauty, greatness, glory etc are eternal. These things would not exist without someone to perceive them. Without the existence of conscious beings, these concepts would not exist either and existence of conscious beings is not eternal.

Further, these concepts themselves change and keep on changing over time. For example, in the middle ages, the epitome of feminine beauty was being pale and chubby. Now it is tanned and fit. If there was an eternal basis, this would've never changed.