(June 10, 2012 at 11:28 am)genkaus Wrote:

(June 10, 2012 at 11:04 am)StatCrux Wrote: William Craig isn't saying philosophy is equal to intellectualism, he's showing that a large number of philosophy professors (who could be considered as intellectual) are also Christian, to counter the assertion that modern universities and the intellectuals are mainly atheist. You can get very clever and very dumb atheists and Christians.

Firstly, by confining the examples of intellectualism to philosophers, even though the other guy explicitly commented on other fields, he is implicitly equating the two.

Secondly, unless he gives percentage figures about rate of atheism among intellectuals compared to that in layman population, these examples are meaningless.

The atheist chap mentions ayer, quine and russell, all philosophers. All that Craig is showing is that to try and imply (as the atheist does) that most of the modern intelligentsia are atheists is refuted by the sheer number of Christian philosophy professors in modern prestigious universities. He lists names because the ones the atheist mentions are dead, "he's dead too!"

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Tempus Wrote:higher intelligence is correlated with atheism


atheism correlates positively with intelligence.

The first statement is refuted by the existence of Christians with higher intelligence ( Philosophy professors) It implies atheism only.

The second statement is how you changed your wording.

(June 10, 2012 at 12:23 pm)StatCrux Wrote:

Tempus Wrote:

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higher intelligence is correlated with atheism


atheism correlates positively with intelligence.

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The first statement is refuted by the existence of Christians with higher intelligence ( Philosophy professors) It implies atheism only.

The second statement is how you changed your wording.

Nice try. Nothing in that first statement is exclusive. I've stated on these forums before (not that I'm saying you should've known) that being an atheist doesn't necessarily make someone intelligent, nor does being a theist make them stupid. You interpreted it as meaning only atheists can be intelligent or that all highly intelligent people are atheists which is not a position I hold (or have ever held). The reason the second statement includes "positively" is to be clearer; i.e., to say that the relationship is a positive one and not a negative one. The wording changed, the meaning did not. Regardless, I do agree I could've worded it more specifically, as I do in the latter statement.

(June 10, 2012 at 12:53 pm)Tempus Wrote: Nice try. Nothing in that first statement is exclusive and indeed I've stated on these forums before that being an atheist doesn't necessarily make someone intelligent, nor does being a theist make them stupid. You interpreted it meant only atheists can be intelligent or that all highly intelligent people are atheists which is not a position I hold (or have ever held). The reason the second statement includes "positively" is to be clearer; i.e., to say that the relationship is a positive one and not a negative one. The wording changed, the meaning did not. Regardless, I do agree I could've worded it more specifically, as I do in the latter statement.

higher intelligence is correlated with atheism


atheism correlates positively with intelligence.

If you say something IS correlated WITH something else, that implies exclusivity,

But to say, something correlates positively with something, doesn't.

Anyway the point is that atheists don't have any claims on intelligence over any other group, which is my position from the beginning.

(June 10, 2012 at 1:10 pm)StatCrux Wrote:

(June 10, 2012 at 12:53 pm)Tempus Wrote:

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Nice try. Nothing in that first statement is exclusive and indeed I've stated on these forums before that being an atheist doesn't necessarily make someone intelligent, nor does being a theist make them stupid. You interpreted it meant only atheists can be intelligent or that all highly intelligent people are atheists which is not a position I hold (or have ever held). The reason the second statement includes "positively" is to be clearer; i.e., to say that the relationship is a positive one and not a negative one. The wording changed, the meaning did not. Regardless, I do agree I could've worded it more specifically, as I do in the latter statement.

higher intelligence is correlated with atheism

atheism correlates positively with intelligence.

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If you say something IS correlated WITH something else, that implies exclusivity,

Maybe if you totally ignore that a single variable can be correlated to multiple variables. An example might be obesity which is correlated with diet / fatty food and exercise. It's not exclusive to say "is correlated with", just ambiguous; that is, it says nothing about that correlation, such as whether it's a positive or negative relationship.

(June 10, 2012 at 1:10 pm)StatCrux Wrote: Anyway the point is that atheists don't have any claims on intelligence over any other group, which is my position from the beginning.

You're pushing an open door here. Sorry for the confusion.

Always nice when we can resolve our own pissing contests. (You both got it up there pretty high.)

(June 10, 2012 at 1:44 pm)whateverist Wrote: Always nice when we can resolve our own pissing contests. (You both got it up there pretty high.)

(June 10, 2012 at 9:49 am)StatCrux Wrote:

(June 9, 2012 at 3:32 pm)Tempus Wrote: Since higher intelligence is correlated with atheism

That assertion is utter rubbish! The moron in this clip representing atheism demonstrates the fact...

Are there idiot atheists out there? ... yes, most definitely.
Are there idiot theists out there? ... absolutely.

How does either keep from being labeled as such??

A good start would be not posting ridiculous videos that only serve to bolster the exact opposite point of which you were trying to make.

(June 10, 2012 at 1:51 pm)Cinjin Wrote: A good start would be not posting ridiculous videos that only serve to bolster the exact opposite point of which you were trying to make.

Not really sure I follow you? My point is that intelligence isn't exclusive to atheists or theists..Ahh I see...the atheist in the video is proving he's an idiot, now I gotcha!

This seems an inevitability, to see the world as it is will naturally turn one away from the supposed fruits of divinity and eternal life and so make a person less happy. Children are less suicidal than adults but this stems not from any wrongness but rather from a naive view of the world, surely the naivety of the theist only treats the symptom of depression? The root cause is no less unanswered, to ask the question 'what is the meaning of life?' then answer it only with another uncertainty will soothe the mind, of course. However, the people they surveyed were counted on 'lifetime suicide attempts and first-degree family member suicides'. WELL SHIT. I had no idea that family member suicide led to other suicides, oh wait, of course, that's common sense. Furthermore, these variables hardly show that atheists are naturally depressive, it simply shows that they're:
1-less skilled at suicide
2-more likely to have family who have committed suicide
Also, intelligent people are more likely to commit suicide than less intelligent people (Emile Durkheim, Suicide, 1897) (intelligent people and atheists are more likely to commit suicide, ergo atheists are more intelligent? supported by other studies too ). However, this study may have overlooked the crucial difference in religious belief, as protestants have ~300% higher suicide rates than catholics (Emile Durkheim, Suicide, 1897) therefore a higher sample concentration of catholics would skew data.

Quote:Also, intelligent people are more likely to commit suicide than less intelligent people (Emile Durkheim, Suicide, 1897) (intelligent people and atheists are more likely to commit suicide, ergo atheists are more intelligent? supported by other studies too Thinking). However, this study may have overlooked the crucial difference in religious belief, as protestants have ~300% higher suicide rates than catholics (Emile Durkheim, Suicide, 1897) therefore a higher sample concentration of catholics would skew data.

Both studies are some 100+ years out of date.

Religiously unaffiliated subjects are more prone to depressive disorders in general, so its not merely a case of being "more successful at suicide":
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10480747

Though there are religiously affiliated atheists so .