You're not reading what I put Kyu.

I want one example of a proof - one tangible, real example - not a type of example.

I suggest you cannot give me one because it is impossible to do so. Hence your requirement is completely irrational.

(September 6, 2009 at 11:57 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You're not reading what I put Kyu.

I want one example of a proof - one tangible, real example - not a type of example.

I suggest you cannot give me one because it is impossible to do so. Hence your requirement is completely irrational.

Yes I am Frodo and that link DOES ... it specifies what we would expect. If a god exists and wants to act on this universe it has to AFFECT it! Any AFFECT has an EFFECT (even if that EFFECT is only the PHENOMENON itself)! Any EFFECT leaves a TRAIL OF EVIDENCE! Any EVIDENCE can be ANALYSED! If that EVIDENCE CANNOT BE EXPLAINED then it is possible to attribute it to a god BUT to date no such EVIDENCE has been uncovered that cannot be more reasonably interpreted otherwise or simply constitutes an unknown question for understandable reason.

Again you just don't want to see it!

Kyu

It doesn't specify what exact event would be acceptable as proof of God being the instigator. I say that this is impossible. You fail to provide an example.

(September 6, 2009 at 1:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: It doesn't specify what exact event would be acceptable as proof of God being the instigator. I say that this is impossible. You fail to provide an example.

How can I provide evidence for a something that shows a strong (1 for 1) correlation with things that don't exist?

Further emphasising what I said above ... we DO NOT need to specify evidence, it IS NOT our hypothesis therefore we DO NOT NEED to provide falsifiability ... YOU DO! The onus is UPON YOU to provide evidence or reasonable justification for YOUR god!

Kyu

I'm not asking you to provide evidence of God. I am asking you to provide a specific example of what would be acceptable to you as evidence.

Please provide one example

(September 6, 2009 at 3:08 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I'm not asking you to provide evidence of God. I am asking you to provide a specific example of what would be acceptable to you as evidence.

Please provide one example

I have absolutely no idea ... the base assumption is naturalistic and mine is that it would have to be something either so outside the laws of the universe or so inherently inexplicable that it could only be attributed to a higher power.

Of course there are a number of intermediate steps that might work ...

• The moon turning red whilst blood rained from the sky?
  
• A nuclear bomb going off in a desert 2cm from my face whilst I feel no ill effects
  
• The ability to turn myself into whatever creature I wish whenever I want?
  
• The ability to fly including through the centre of the Earth or through stars as I wish?
  
• The ability to telepathically control people including ... well let's leave that for now!
  
• A large multi-mega-million pound (£) deposit in a Swiss bank in my name
  
• Instant election of myself to a rich (as tyrant) to a world government with a space presence and the best weapons I can conceive of?
  
• Someone actually healing the sick by magic (and working in a city centre hospital)?
  
  Or here's an idea ...
  
  
• How about God popping his head up (down?) from wherever it is and inviting us round for tea and then making me personal ruler of this galaxy?

But the truth is I have no real idea because the ball is in YOUR Court to provide the evidence for YOUR hypothesis (and calling it that is being kind)!

Kyu

I'd take... none of those as "God"... because "he" does not EXIST. I would take those as evidence of a very powerful being, or race, or a lot of luck... but nothing would ever give me evidence for "God", because it cannot exist.

Honestly,you don't have to be a rocket scientist to deduce that the existence of a god or creative intelligent beings is highly unlikely.The roots of belief in god or gods are found in world myths and are the creation of man to help him understand the many mysteries of nature and the world around them.All religions have the same theme of wondering where we came from,how did the universe come to exist,and what is our place as a species in the natural world etc. etc. It all comes down to origins.

Alot of these "mysteries" have been answered by science. We now know where rain comes from,that the world is not flat,how lightning develops,what causes earth quakes,tsunamis,tornadoes,and other natural disasters.We don't think that god or the gods are angry all that religious beliefs prove is that they are a derivative of primitive thinking based on ignorance in a pre-scientific world.

Thanks for your answer Kyu. For your kindness, and for your honesty.

Of course none of those things would ever constitute evidence for God. Anything evidential has then to be included in 'natural'/ as obeying the physical nature of the Universe.

Here's the answer you're looking for:

(September 6, 2009 at 4:46 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I have no real idea

So your assumption that God doesn't exist because he fails to show his face is entirely erroneous.

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(September 6, 2009 at 4:56 pm)Saerules Wrote: but nothing would ever give me evidence for "God", because it cannot exist.

That's a very absolute statement Saerules. How do you know it cannot exist? Where is your proof for such a statement?

Such is the exact subject of my debate with Arcanus

My proof for such a statement comes from the logical impossibilities and hypocrisies that are prevalent in the Christian text and their usual interpretation of their god. I do not, in any way, state that a powerful being or beings cannot exist... but the god of the Christians (especially), Muslims, and Jews cannot exist (at least, not the way they would have to understand them).