(September 7, 2009 at 7:59 am)Retorth Wrote: So you are saying that believing in God is a law? If that is so, then the 'choice' of believing in him or not is irrelevant.

It is a law, yes. One of many that are broken. "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ" (1 John 3:23). And that does not render choice irrelevant. It renders choice significant.

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(September 7, 2009 at 8:13 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: In essence, you then went on to describe how the other denizens if this forum, despite many having Christian roots, lacked the requisite experience to criticise your chosen religion.

Can you please cite (i.e., direct quote) where I said anything of the sort?

(September 7, 2009 at 8:52 am)Arcanus Wrote: It is a law, yes. One of many that are broken. "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ" (1 John 3:23). And that does not render choice irrelevant. It renders choice significant.

The definition of the word "choice" is an act or instance of choosing; the right, power, or opportunity to choose. If it is a law, then where is the choice?

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By the way, Kyuu, my apologies for the cross-conversation.

(September 7, 2009 at 8:52 am)Arcanus Wrote:

(September 7, 2009 at 8:13 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: In essence, you then went on to describe how the other denizens if this forum, despite many having Christian roots, lacked the requisite experience to criticise your chosen religion.

Can you please cite (i.e., direct quote) where I said anything of the sort?

The one I responded to, Post #9

Just read it again and to my mind it fairly clearly brands our opinions as outdated and/or irrelvant (despite the fact that many of us have only recently broken away from our religious roots and despite the fact that we all STILL pretty much say the same thing.

Kyu

(September 7, 2009 at 3:24 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: The one I responded to, Post #9

I asked for a DIRECT QUOTE that shows where I said or implied they lack "the requisite experience to criticise your chosen religion." How was that in any way unclear?

(September 7, 2009 at 3:28 pm)Arcanus Wrote:

(September 7, 2009 at 3:24 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: The one I responded to, Post #9

I asked for a DIRECT QUOTE that shows where I said or implied they lack "the requisite experience to criticise your chosen religion." How was that in any way unclear?

You said:
Subsequently, I have no confidence in what you are thinking as you frame those questions—what you understand heaven to be, what you understand about who goes there, what you understand being a Christian means, why you think heaven and hell co-exist, etc. That is to say, I immediately suspect the probability that your questions mirror a Christian fundamentalist conception of these matters, given the aforementioned observations

That reads to me as dismissing the views of those here as irrelevant and to my mind is a vraint on the No True Scotsman.

If you didn't then YOU NEED TO EXPRESS YOURSELF MORE CLEARLY!
Kyu

(September 7, 2009 at 4:40 am)theVOID Wrote:

(September 7, 2009 at 3:07 am)ecolox Wrote:

(September 7, 2009 at 12:13 am)theVOID Wrote: How do you know God exists?

I don't know how else to explain this existence. If God doesn't exist, why would I? Don't say there isn't a reason, because that wouldn't be rational.

So the reason you believe in God is essentially because you see no other way existence is possible?

It's the only possible reason isn't it?

theVOID Wrote:So it raises the question; why the fuck would you listen to a word that came from this period, let along take it as gospel?

Your prejudice towards people of 1st century A.D. is not good or qualified so far. Now, if you have an alternative explanation for the universe, please, share it.

Quote:Your prejudice towards people of 1st century A.D. is not good or qualified so far. Now, if you have an alternative explanation for the universe, please, share it.

The Universe does not require an explanation just because we demand one of it!

Indeed.

No explanation is better than a bad one, better than an invalid one, an incorrect one, and also better than a load of nonsense made up.

It's okay to say "I don't know".

EvF

(September 7, 2009 at 6:54 am)Ace Wrote: What keeps me living is the fact that this existence is temporary and limited and so I plan to live it up while I can because there will be no other life than this one. Enjoying every moment as if it were my last.

What does living it up consist of? Pursuing thrills or pleasure or what exactly? Also, what does it mean to enjoy every moment as if it were your last? Does that mean you enjoy hardship and pain and things being taken from you? And why does the simple fact that this existence is temporary drive you to do anything? What will all that 'driving' mean when your life is over?

Ace Wrote:It's because I don't believe in another life beyond this one that I know I must take great care of this life. I didn't say death is better than life, I'm saying death is the end! Death is where we all vanish into non-existence. Gone forever. That's what happens to biolgocial lifeforms and guess what? We are biological lifeforms and so we will die and vanish. Tell me, Have you ever considered that your belief in an afterlife might be wrong? That you could actually end up no longer existing instead?

Huh? What do you mean "take care of this life"? To live, but at what cost? How do you know death is the end, how do you know we're all just chemical reactions and that's it? Yes, of course I've had doubts and so on. But is ceasing to exist really as good as you're making it out to be? Doesn't that make this life rather pointless - especially considering that all life will, presumably, cease to exist at some point. Why would you work on, for example, designing that new refrigerator if you understood the logical conclusion of your point of view? You'd just have to ignore the grim reality, and pursue thrills/pleasure/social standing/or some other vain thing.

Ace Wrote:Just because there is no afterlife does not mean we go about killing ourselves. That happens to be the dumbest thing anyone has yet said. It's because there is no afterlife that we should take great care with it.

Why live/grow/build when everything will be destroyed? I'll try to appeal to the instant gratification mentality of your society. Now, what if, every time you built anything (ideas, structures, and so on) it was immediately destroyed? Even your memory of the details of your production would be destroyed. You couldn't even reminisce. All you could remember was that you built something and it was taken away, despite your wanting to keep it. Now, tell me, would you keep building if every time you built, your creation was destroyed against your will?

So, no afterlife means careful living. Why prolong the inevitable? Isn't that vain?

Ace Wrote:I don't like the idea of there being an afterlife. I'm glad there is an end.

I bet you feel the same way about good dreams, movies, or any other experience that you enjoy.

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(September 7, 2009 at 9:35 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Indeed.

No explanation is better than a bad one, better than an invalid one, an incorrect one, and also better than a load of nonsense made up.

It's okay to say "I don't know".

But no explanation is not better than a good one - which is what we have.

So atheists are reduced to saying it's okay to be ignorant - the president of the U.S. should have told the school children that and seen how parents/teachers/citizens would react. No further questions.

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(September 7, 2009 at 9:33 pm)Darwinian Wrote: The Universe does not require an explanation just because we demand one of it!

So much for being rational, huh.

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(September 7, 2009 at 7:31 am)Retorth Wrote: But he still condemns non-believers, so how is that just? How is that a representation of goodness?

Well, how is anti-theism a representation of goodness? If anti-theism isn't good and doesn't lead to good things why would God bother making exceptions for anti-theists?

Retorth Wrote:Are you telling me he is an indecisive god? Or that you are unsure if he would save non-believers?

No, of course not (re: indecision). I think accidental non-believers may be given a chance at hearing the gospel...for fairness sake, unless they had ample chance just existing - God only knows. I wouldn't expect the anti-theists who know the gospel well to have much excuse for rejecting and bashing it.

Retorth Wrote:When you commit suicide, the object is to kill yourself. How can you possibly do it more then once? If you say "attempted suicide" then ok you can do that more then once. And in any case, Ace already explained himself above so I'll leave it at that.

I was referencing an afterlife (e.g. sounds like Ace would kill himself again in the afterlife).

Retorth Wrote:But what if god doesn't even exist?

Then I guess I'll have helped all those people for nothing (including myself).

Retorth Wrote:(I use "what if" to be fair)

How honest of you.

Retorth Wrote:If he doesn't exist, the only options left are your friends and family which are the people that I live for.

Not really. People default to living for themselves - "I've seen it a thousand times". Jesus said that living for your friends and family isn't good enough anyway - and I agree with that.

Retorth Wrote:You are choosing to base your main reason for living solely on god.

Yes! Seeking/discovering God and living in a way that pleases Him is tops.

Retorth Wrote:I ask again, what if you are wrong about his existence?

Then I'll have loved my enemies and neighbors for no reason, and taken care of my own mind, body and soul for naught. I'm willing to risk all that in my self-bet that He exists.

Retorth Wrote:Will you end your life then since there is nothing else for you to live for?

I would probably let myself expire if I had no reason to be alive.

Retorth Wrote:You cannot even prove that he exists can you? If you do, I definitely am keen to hear more.

That is the risk I take.

Retorth Wrote:I do what? See it in the same way? God, in the bible, is forceful. He doesn't let us choose even though he claims that we can. Either you follow him or face condemnation. The evidence is everywhere. Ask anyone here and they will tell you the same.

How can you not choose? Either you follow Him or you exist without Him. Do you think you should be able to keep up with Him (and receive the related blessings) if you don't follow?

ecelox Wrote:

Darwinian Wrote:The Universe does not require an explanation just because we demand one of it!

So much for being rational, huh.

Explanations are a human requirement. Just because you want a reason for the Universe does not mean there is one. The Universe does not have to conform to your expectations of it!

What is there about that, that you do not understand?