You are an idiot ecolox, if you are unable to conceive of a way it could exist without magic man, but there is still so much to learn, and none of what has ever been proven to be correct about the universe has never needed god as an explanation.

Just because you can't conceive of the possibilities, all proudly backed by loads of evidence and generations of research, does not mean your first-guess conclusion has any relevance.

ecolox Wrote:Well, how is anti-theism a representation of goodness? If anti-theism isn't good and doesn't lead to good things why would God bother making exceptions for anti-theists?

There are many Atheists who are good people, decent and intellectual. Just because a person is Atheist does not in any way incur that they are indecent, immoral individuals. Many people who do not have anything to do with the supernatural live perfectly normal, fulfilled lives. In fact, theism causes certain individuals to commit suicide and kill others so I could just as easily tell you that theism amounts to nothing good either. However, that wouldn't be a totally fair statement. It is a matter of perspective at the end of the day.

ecolox Wrote:No, of course not (re: indecision). I think accidental non-believers may be given a chance at hearing the gospel...for fairness sake, unless they had ample chance just existing - God only knows. I wouldn't expect the anti-theists who know the gospel well to have much excuse for rejecting and bashing it.

If I may ask, why do you refer to Atheists as "Anti-theists"? Or are you referring to another group altogether? Just so I don't misunderstand.

ecolox Wrote:I was referencing an afterlife (e.g. sounds like Ace would kill himself again in the afterlife).

I see, I apologize for that misunderstanding then.

ecolox Wrote:Then I guess I'll have helped all those people for nothing (including myself).

Personally, I don't think that would have been wasted help. If not for god, you would have done it out of the pureness of your heart. You should not require a god to 'encourage' you to do what is right.

ecolox Wrote:Not really. People default to living for themselves - "I've seen it a thousand times". Jesus said that living for your friends and family isn't good enough anyway - and I agree with that.

Well thats his perogative then isn't it? Living to enjoy the joy of having a warm family and friends around me is what keeps me and I believe many others like myself going in this life. Instead of forcing myself to do good while I'm alive, just so I can get my name in the "good" book to secure a place in heaven, I do good because I choose to.

Now you say you do good because you choose to, which I agree with of course, but earlier you said, and I quote:

ecolox Wrote:Then I guess I'll have helped all those people for nothing (including myself).

ecolox Wrote:Then I'll have loved my enemies and neighbors for no reason, and taken care of my own mind, body and soul for naught. I'm willing to risk all that in my self-bet that He exists.

But why do you feel that it would then all be in vain? Are you saying that whatever good you do at present is not out of the goodness of your own heart but only because god said to do so?

ecolox Wrote:I would probably let myself expire if I had no reason to be alive.

How do you mean by "expire"?

Retorth Wrote:You cannot even prove that he exists can you? If you do, I definitely am keen to hear more.

That is the risk I take.

ecolox Wrote:How can you not choose? Either you follow Him or you exist without Him. Do you think you should be able to keep up with Him (and receive the related blessings) if you don't follow?

We are existing pretty darn well without him so far.

Quote:What does living it up consist of? Pursuing thrills or pleasure or what exactly? Also, what does it mean to enjoy every moment as if it were your last? Does that mean you enjoy hardship and pain and things being taken from you? And why does the simple fact that this existence is temporary drive you to do anything? What will all that 'driving' mean when your life is over?

What does it mean? You should know! What evidence do you have to say there is another life? What evidence do you have to confirm/prove what you believe?
Enjoying every moment to live this one life that will never come again has far more meaning than one that relies on a belief of another life. If you think it's pointless, fine! If you think living is pointless and should just end this one chance of life then be my guest. I think we are all bloody lucky to be alive, we are very lucky to be given this chance of existence and we should do all we can to better this existence not just for us but for others who are also lucky to be here. It's called being human! It's called being intelligent and thoughtful and if you can't see that then I pity you. To look around in this one existence and say where's the point proves that you are very blind to just how lucky you are to be here. An afterlife is a belief made by man who desperately hopes for ever lasting life that can never happen. It's the price of existence. We are only able to live a little while and it's what we do in this small amount of time that makes us great. I live to help, to better life and become more than what I am. I think that has more meaning and purpose than that of a religious view point.

Quote:Huh? What do you mean "take care of this life"? To live, but at what cost? How do you know death is the end, how do you know we're all just chemical reactions and that's it? Yes, of course I've had doubts and so on. But is ceasing to exist really as good as you're making it out to be? Doesn't that make this life rather pointless - especially considering that all life will, presumably, cease to exist at some point. Why would you work on, for example, designing that new refrigerator if you understood the logical conclusion of your point of view? You'd just have to ignore the grim reality, and pursue thrills/pleasure/social standing/or some other vain thing.

How do you know there is another life? What evidence do you have to support your assertions?
Life is not pointless, it is a wonder and a chance of existence. I work and aim for things I've yet to do because it betters the quality of life. Unless you got a better idea what to do with time? There is no guarantee of an afterlife, in fact the chances are against you for an afterlife. No evidence suggests that there is such a place. So I'd start looking for a purpose for this one and only existence for yourself! Because you maybe more wrong than you could possibly know.

Quote:Why live/grow/build when everything will be destroyed? I'll try to appeal to the instant gratification mentality of your society. Now, what if, every time you built anything (ideas, structures, and so on) it was immediately destroyed? Even your memory of the details of your production would be destroyed. You couldn't even reminisce. All you could remember was that you built something and it was taken away, despite your wanting to keep it. Now, tell me, would you keep building if every time you built, your creation was destroyed against your will?

If you built a house and it was destroyed would you sit on the ground in tears? If we gave up building and living we would not be here talking. The old generation teaches the new and the new carry on in their place. That's how things move forward. To be bothered to teach, build and pass on for the next generation is by far the most intelligent and thoughtful thing any clever being could ever do. To just give it all up....well that's just plan dumb. Everything ends, that's the nature of our existence weather we like it or not. Beliefs will not bend nor change reality. Whatever the belief maybe. No evidence suggests that there is no afterlife. So get used to it. There is no guarantee, there is no confirmation and that is that.

Quote:So, no afterlife means careful living. Why prolong the inevitable? Isn't that vain?

Well it's because of this one life that we should take care of it. If we lose it, then that's it. We are gone. Why prolong? Well because this is our only chance to live it while we can. If you think not, well go jump of a cliff if you want. I won't stop you.
It's pointless to go on through life and ignoring facts. You do not know there is a heaven. There is no guarantee and no confirmation of it's existence. Science doesn't do good or bad news, it does facts! Heaven is the belief to ease the passing from existence. I don't want to ignore what actually happens to you, I want to know and accept it. You constantly remind yourself of an afterlife. Why? Is it to prevent you from questioning it? If there was such a place, I'd never feel sad for those who die. Because I'd know they still exist with consciousness somewhere better. It because there is no afterlife that death is the end. We are biological and we will cease to exist. It's called nature!

Quote:I bet you feel the same way about good dreams, movies, or any other experience that you enjoy.

---

No, I enjoy dreams while I can. The same goes for everything I enjoy.

Well said Ace... I could tackle never-ending life, and why it is a horrible curse... but right now i am very tired from playing WoW until 3:30...

Darwinian Wrote:Explanations are a human requirement. Just because you want a reason for the Universe does not mean there is one. The Universe does not have to conform to your expectations of it!

What is there about that, that you do not understand?

Explanations are required by rationality. How can I understand Mr. Darwinian who pretends to insist on rational explanations, but when it really matters he backs down and says "whoa there fella - the Universe doesn't have to make sense after all".

---

(September 8, 2009 at 2:37 am)theVOID Wrote: You are an idiot ecolox, if you are unable to conceive of a way it could exist without magic man, but there is still so much to learn, and none of what has ever been proven to be correct about the universe has never needed god as an explanation.

Just because you can't conceive of the possibilities, all proudly backed by loads of evidence and generations of research, does not mean your first-guess conclusion has any relevance.

theVOID, you haven't explained why you exist, I have. You haven't even laid out the possibilities. There isn't much point in even addressing you unless you can do just that.

---

(September 8, 2009 at 8:57 am)Retorth Wrote: There are many Atheists who are good people, decent and intellectual. Just because a person is Atheist does not in any way incur that they are indecent, immoral individuals. Many people who do not have anything to do with the supernatural live perfectly normal, fulfilled lives. In fact, theism causes certain individuals to commit suicide and kill others so I could just as easily tell you that theism amounts to nothing good either. However, that wouldn't be a totally fair statement. It is a matter of perspective at the end of the day.

What atheists are truly good people? What is the best thing that an atheist can live for? Living a "normal, fulfilled" life doesn't mean jack! Where's the atheist equivalent of Jesus? Would you do what Jesus did Retorth? I hope I would.

Retorth Wrote:If I may ask, why do you refer to Atheists as "Anti-theists"? Or are you referring to another group altogether? Just so I don't misunderstand.

Those are the people that attack theists for their beliefs...hence the name "anti-theist".

ecolox Wrote:Then I guess I'll have helped all those people for nothing (including myself).

Retorth Wrote:Personally, I don't think that would have been wasted help. If not for god, you would have done it out of the pureness of your heart. You should not require a god to 'encourage' you to do what is right.

If there is no God, then there is no reason to exist. You have yet to offer up an explanation that explains why you exist.

ecolox Wrote:Not really. People default to living for themselves - "I've seen it a thousand times". Jesus said that living for your friends and family isn't good enough anyway - and I agree with that.

Quote:Well thats his perogative then isn't it? Living to enjoy the joy of having a warm family and friends around me is what keeps me and I believe many others like myself going in this life. Instead of forcing myself to do good while I'm alive, just so I can get my name in the "good" book to secure a place in heaven, I do good because I choose to.

Retorth Wrote:Now you say you do good because you choose to, which I agree with of course, but earlier you said, and I quote:

ecolox Wrote:Then I guess I'll have helped all those people for nothing (including myself).

Well, technically I didn't say the quote that doesn't have a name attached, if that clarifies anything. I don't know where that quote came from. I guess you fabricated it, who knows.

ecolox Wrote:Then I'll have loved my enemies and neighbors for no reason, and taken care of my own mind, body and soul for naught. I'm willing to risk all that in my self-bet that He exists.

Retorth Wrote:But why do you feel that it would then all be in vain? Are you saying that whatever good you do at present is not out of the goodness of your own heart but only because god said to do so?

Imagine if you and your mom were starving to death on a mountain top. No way to get down, no way you'd be rescued, a hopeless situation. What difference would it make if your mom killed herself to let you eat her (an act of self-sacrifice) so that you could live for a couple days more - in a world without God. You would live a couple days more off of your mothers flesh, but then you would die too. What good would her act have ultimately done, really? Seriously. No other human would know about it, and even if they did find out they would just cease to exist too. What difference would it make ultimately?
The good that I do, I do to please God, not man - whether God approves of me or not, I will try to please Him. And I don't know what "the goodness of your own heart" is supposed to mean.

ecolox Wrote:I would probably let myself expire if I had no reason to be alive.

Retorth Wrote:How do you mean by "expire"?

I would neglect myself, and I would waste away and die.

ecolox Wrote:How can you not choose? Either you follow Him or you exist without Him. Do you think you should be able to keep up with Him (and receive the related blessings) if you don't follow?

Retorth Wrote:We are existing pretty darn well without him so far.

Are you delusional? Or that ignorant of the world in which you live?

---

(September 8, 2009 at 9:34 am)Ace Wrote: How do you know there is another life? What evidence do you have to support your assertions?
Life is not pointless, it is a wonder and a chance of existence. I work and aim for things I've yet to do because it betters the quality of life. Unless you got a better idea what to do with time? There is no guarantee of an afterlife, in fact the chances are against you for an afterlife. No evidence suggests that there is such a place. So I'd start looking for a purpose for this one and only existence for yourself! Because you maybe more wrong than you could possibly know.

Since you seemed to miss the majority of the salient points, I see no reason in responding to your long sermon of unqualified statements. I don't care to keep repeating my points for you, they are readily available. (one example: you have not explained the point of life - you just said you want to make it more enjoyable - why? it doesn't make sense without answering why).

I did see something worth responding to at the end of this quote - about finding a purpose. You want me to abandon the purpose I have found, and look for one that meets your criteria? No thanks - yours doesn't make any sense, which is why I found mine. You claim there is no evidence, and I say if there is no afterlife then this life doesn't mean anything.

If you will explain why you exist (and why the universe exists), then we will talk. Explain how life means something if it is ultimately obliterated and nothing lasts - then we'll talk. Imagine if carpenters built homes for the homeless that disappeared instantly - would you call the carpenters good? Why? What point would there be in writing a book with disappearing ink?

You just don't get it, and for that I pity you.

ecolox Wrote:Those are the people that attack theists for their beliefs...hence the name "anti-theist".

For you to think of Atheists in such a way doesn't surprise me, given how you appear so hostile. I do not know where you got that idea but Atheists are simply people who disbelief in the idea of a supreme being. Atheists are not people who are "against" Christians. We are not against anything. We just refuse to believe in a supreme intergalactic being. Judging from the responses you have provided not only to myself, I wouldn't be surprised if you had bad experiences in the past. I hope this clears it up, however.

ecolox Wrote:If there is no God, then there is no reason to exist. You have yet to offer up an explanation that explains why you exist.

I already told you, I do not require an imaginary being to make my life meaningful. It is really sad that you should require one so desperately otherwise viewing your life as worthless. That is how you see it, not me.

ecolox Wrote:Well, technically I didn't say the quote that doesn't have a name attached, if that clarifies anything. I don't know where that quote came from. I guess you fabricated it, who knows.

I realized I mixed up the sentence while pasting one of yours, into mine. My apologies for that. You said the following:

ecolox Wrote:Then I guess I'll have helped all those people for nothing (including myself).

This was what I was referring to.

ecolox Wrote:Imagine if you and your mom were starving to death on a mountain top. No way to get down, no way you'd be rescued, a hopeless situation. What difference would it make if your mom killed herself to let you eat her (an act of self-sacrifice) so that you could live for a couple days more - in a world without God. You would live a couple days more off of your mothers flesh, but then you would die too. What good would her act have ultimately done, really? Seriously. No other human would know about it, and even if they did find out they would just cease to exist too. What difference would it make ultimately?
The good that I do, I do to please God, not man - whether God approves of me or not, I will try to please Him. And I don't know what "the goodness of your own heart" is supposed to mean.

Firstly, I certainly hope such a situation never occurs lol That would be extremely horrifying.

Anyway, what difference would it make, you say? Her act would have prolonged her son's life in hopes that I might find a way to survive. I am a product of hers and therefore she loved me enough to make the ultimate sacrifice, again in hopes that I might be able to survive.

She does not need another human being to know about it. It isn't about showcasing how beautiful you are. You do good out of your own heart. I am sorry that you need an audience to see any good you do. It only shows being self-centered.

When I say "the goodness of your own heart", I mean what it says exactly, doing it out of your own heart, and not for any other reason.

ecolox Wrote:I would neglect myself, and I would waste away and die.

You have no idea how sad that sounds, seriously.

ecolox Wrote:Are you delusional? Or that ignorant of the world in which you live?

God isn't helping in any way in this mad, screwed up world we live in today. He hasn't shown himself or shown infallible evidence to prove himself. How you can still believe he exists is beyond me. I think it isn't me who is the delusional one.

wall... of text... has... overloaded... my brain

My post on http://atheistforums.org/thread-1787-pos...l#pid31658 will tell you how to create spoilers. Please use them, or just type less long winded posts.

Take things one step at a time, and you will be 99.999% less likely to trip.

ecolox Wrote:

(September 8, 2009 at 2:37 am)theVOID Wrote: You are an idiot ecolox, if you are unable to conceive of a way it could exist without magic man, but there is still so much to learn, and none of what has ever been proven to be correct about the universe has never needed god as an explanation.

Just because you can't conceive of the possibilities, all proudly backed by loads of evidence and generations of research, does not mean your first-guess conclusion has any relevance.

theVOID, you haven't explained why you exist, I have. You haven't even laid out the possibilities. There isn't much point in even addressing you unless you can do just that.

---

13.7 billion years ago the universe existed in a state we call the singularity, an infinitely dense point of energy containing all matter, energy, space and time. The singularity expanded rapidly in an event dubbed the "Big Bang" but it was not as if it exploded into space because space and time were as i said, part of the singularity, but rather expanded outward creating space and time, all matter and all energy in our universe as it went.

For around ten million trillion trillion trillionths of a second all forces in the universe were combined into a single force and as such our current explanation of the universe beings: The single force, as it expanded, cooled down from a temperature of a thousand billion trillion allowing the fundamental forces of the universe to come into existence, those forces being gravity, strong and weak nuclear force and the electromagnetic force, as it cooled down more gravity started to take effect, condensing the energy into subatomic particles and eventually the lightest elements, mostly hydrogen but also a very small amount of helium; gravity kept condensing. After a few hundred million years this matter and energy had condensed into starts splattered throughout space and time, which, as stars do; started fusing their hydrogen atoms, via fusion, into helium atoms emitting light and heat from the leftover photons and emitted radiation.

When a star runs out of hydrogen it undergoes a rapid change, the core collapses to a more dense star in less than a second and it gets smaller while emitting a cloud of matter in a violent explosion out into the cosmos. The star then starts fusing helium creating some heavier created elements such as lithium, oxygen, nitrogen and carbon among.

The matter expelled by the explosion along with small amounts of the heavier atoms starts forming under gravity into meteors, planets, more stars etc...

After hundreds of millions more years the gravity has made successful planets, or 4.5 billion years ago in out case.

Under the hot, dense atmosphere of the earth chemical reactions between the elements started occurring, creating Ribonucleotides (the building blocks of RNA) as well as Amino acids which organize into proteins, bipid bilayers, nucleic acid etc until the first life forms on earth, prokaryotes, started to arise. These were self replicating molecules that emerged in great numbers from considerable chemical reactions all over the earth.

The single cell organisms began to replicate and replicate as the environment continued to change. Random mutations saw the organisms change to suit their environment and the ones that did not became extinct. The single cell organisms grew into multi cellular organisms and continued to grow and consume and divide and expand and, under a changing atmosphere, the ones best adapted to survive lived while the others died. The single cell organisms continued to grow and over billions of years grew and grew and grew and today, we, mankind, are one of the many variations of this extremely long process of evolution.



That's what happened, what's your theory? Oh, let me guess, "Let there be light" right? How very rational and fact-based of you.

(September 8, 2009 at 9:48 pm)ecolox Wrote: Since you seemed to miss the majority of the salient points, I see no reason in responding to your long sermon of unqualified statements. I don't care to keep repeating my points for you, they are readily available. (one example: you have not explained the point of life - you just said you want to make it more enjoyable - why? it doesn't make sense without answering why).

I did see something worth responding to at the end of this quote - about finding a purpose. You want me to abandon the purpose I have found, and look for one that meets your criteria? No thanks - yours doesn't make any sense, which is why I found mine. You claim there is no evidence, and I say if there is no afterlife then this life doesn't mean anything.

If you will explain why you exist (and why the universe exists), then we will talk. Explain how life means something if it is ultimately obliterated and nothing lasts - then we'll talk. Imagine if carpenters built homes for the homeless that disappeared instantly - would you call the carpenters good? Why? What point would there be in writing a book with disappearing ink?

You just don't get it, and for that I pity you.

Well that was a pathetic responce. I've said all I needed to say, if you cannot get past your delusions then this debate is over. You fail to provide evidence for an afterlife and a creator. If you think it doesn't make sense to you, fine! It makes sense to me and many others. I am not going to waste any more time with you. You ask for why live and the purpose and I have stated them. I think it's just beyond you to understand. You have your head shoved so far up superstition's arse that you cannot see past it.

Quote:You just don't get it, and for that I pity you.

The feeling is mutual.

Quote:You claim there is no evidence, and I say if there is no afterlife then this life doesn't mean anything.

I answered this in a previous post. Don't expect me to repeat or change my response.

Quote:If you will explain why you exist (and why the universe exists)

I do not know how the universe began and nor do you. We can only assume at this point.

Quote:No thanks - yours doesn't make any sense, which is why I found mine.

The feeling is mutual.

--
I'm still waiting for evidence of an afterlife and god.

(September 8, 2009 at 11:37 pm)Retorth Wrote:

ecolox Wrote:...why you exist.

I already told you, I do not require an imaginary being to make my life meaningful. It is really sad that you should require one so desperately otherwise viewing your life as worthless. That is how you see it, not me.

Why you exist - why you survive? The only explanations you have provided are short-sighted ones. Ultimately you live for poofs/nothing - that's what I'm taking away from this. You live for things that will be gone soon.

Retorth Wrote:When I say "the goodness of your own heart", I mean what it says exactly, doing it out of your own heart, and not for any other reason.

Does that qualify as a reason? You are good to others for yourself? If you were really good ("the goodness of your own heart") then you would love your enemies also - being a force to end conflict, whether it works or not.

ecolox Wrote:I would neglect myself, and I would waste away and die.

Retorth Wrote:You have no idea how sad that sounds, seriously.

You have no idea how sad atheism sounds, apparently.

ecolox Wrote:Are you delusional? Or that ignorant of the world in which you live?

Retorth Wrote:God isn't helping in any way in this mad, screwed up world we live in today. He hasn't shown himself or shown infallible evidence to prove himself. How you can still believe he exists is beyond me. I think it isn't me who is the delusional one.

People don't live for God, that's why the world is the way it is. He allows us to be free - as your ideas have proven.