I think its becoming a pointless debate with him, unfortunately. I could sense a disturbance in his force a long time ago

(September 10, 2009 at 12:46 pm)Retorth Wrote: I think its becoming a pointless debate with him, unfortunately. I could sense a disturbance in his force a long time ago

People like him have that common delusion often found in theists that we are somehow very special and have some special purpose. As if the universe was made for us or something. Not everything has a purpose. We have an evolutionary purpose which is to ensure the survival of our species but outside that...

Humans naturally look for purposes in everything without realising that not everything needs nor has a purpose. I doubt he'd realise that.

Anyway, if everything has a purpose then whats the purpose of god?

(September 10, 2009 at 12:53 pm)Ace Wrote:

(September 10, 2009 at 12:46 pm)Retorth Wrote: I think its becoming a pointless debate with him, unfortunately. I could sense a disturbance in his force a long time ago

People like him have that common delusion often found in theists that we are somehow very special and have some special purpose. As if the universe was made for us or something. Not everything has a purpose. We have an evolutionary purpose which is to ensure the survival of our species but outside that...

Humans naturally look for purposes in everything without realising that not everything needs nor has a purpose. I doubt he'd realise that.

Anyway, if everything has a purpose then whats the purpose of god?

Very true. Dinosaurs and other creatures roamed the earth for decades before humans ever stepped foot on it so we are no where near the primary cause. Who are we to claim ourselves so damned important in this world anyway lol Like what George Carlin said: The earth has been through so much shit before humans, so who are we to think we're killing the planet? Something along those lines anyway.

(September 10, 2009 at 12:53 pm)Ace Wrote:

(September 10, 2009 at 12:46 pm)Retorth Wrote: I think its becoming a pointless debate with him, unfortunately. I could sense a disturbance in his force a long time ago

People like him have that common delusion often found in theists that we are somehow very special and have some special purpose. As if the universe was made for us or something. Not everything has a purpose. We have an evolutionary purpose which is to ensure the survival of our species but outside that...

Humans naturally look for purposes in everything without realising that not everything needs nor has a purpose. I doubt he'd realise that.

Anyway, if everything has a purpose then whats the purpose of god?

Not only that, if God made the universe Just for us, it's a serious waste of space. Literally.

(September 10, 2009 at 11:39 am)Ace Wrote:

(September 10, 2009 at 11:21 am)ecolox Wrote: You are relying on the ignorant position - why do you think that suffices? It is honestly ignorant.

The supporting evidence for an ultimate cause is our existence. You are happy with ignorance. I know that there must be a cause, and I am seeking to explain what the cause must have been. God is what I have found to be true thus far.

Admitting to not knowing the answer is actually a smart intellectual responce. Our existence is not evidence of a creator. The universe is capable of existing without the need of a creator.
Anyway, that very argument can be used to support the FSM as much as god.

It is not evidence of god. Not knowing the answer isn't ignorance, it's without knowledge. I do not have the knowledge about the reasons of how and why the universe exists. I will not lie and start assuming I know the answer. That would be ignorant. I can only assume. That is honesty.

It's ignorant to claim to know the answer to everything without supporting evidence. You are making a huge claim without evidence to support it. It is you who is ignorant. Now, please give actual evidence of a god and afterlife.

Christians admit to not knowing the answer when they claim to have faith (they have a best guess, and they will (ideally) live as if they're sure). You assume that there is no reason for your existence because you don't know, and you assume that there is no god because you cannot see one. You then go on to make up your own reason for living that doesn't make any sense - because no one can live for no reason - you need something to grasp to... If everyone made up individualized reasons for existing then we would have conflict in the world, perhaps worse than we do - but if everyone accepted that God made this world and His will is for us to do unto others as we would be done by, then there could be no conflict.

I can give evidence for God that suffices for you as easily as you can give an explanation as to why you exist that suffices for me.

---

(September 10, 2009 at 12:53 pm)Ace Wrote: Anyway, if everything has a purpose then whats the purpose of god?

We can't explain the inside of the universe, much less the outside. I think it's reasonable to stop trying to explain things once we have explained the universe.

(September 10, 2009 at 3:33 pm)ecolox Wrote: Christians admit to not knowing the answer when they claim to have faith (they have a best guess, and they will (ideally) live as if they're sure). You assume that there is no reason for your existence because you don't know, and you assume that there is no god because you cannot see one. You then go on to make up your own reason for living that doesn't make any sense - because no one can live for no reason - you need something to grasp to... If everyone made up individualized reasons for existing then we would have conflict in the world, perhaps worse than we do - but if everyone accepted that God made this world and His will is for us to do unto others as we would be done by, then there could be no conflict.

I can give evidence for God that suffices for you as easily as you can give an explanation as to why you exist that suffices for me.

*yawn* Strawman. That is not at all what we say. We don't believe in god because there is no evidence for it. There are plenty of things I believe in that I have never seen. For instance, I believe in black holes despite never having seen one. Our scientific data proves they exist.

You miss the point about everyone giving their live reason. These are simply values we place on experiences. I desire to live because I love interacting with my friends and family, I love my cat, food, roller coasters, etc... These reasons can be very simple to very complex.

And of course, if you're going to insist that we'd become selfish apes, you're wrong because it simply hasn't happened. We value our lives so we create a social construct in which murdering is wrong. This is how our laws and morals developed.

Statistics have shown that the healthiest societies are those that are more secular rather than less.

(September 10, 2009 at 3:33 pm)ecolox Wrote: We can't explain the inside of the universe, much less the outside. I think it's reasonable to stop trying to explain things once we have explained the universe.

What? This is a completely nonsensical statement. You're essentially admitting we don't have an answer, but hey! Let's stick God in there and call it a day! At least scientists are honest about what they don't know and are actively trying to know more about it, where your answer stunts intellectual growth and is effectively a non answer!

(September 10, 2009 at 12:43 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Quote:Does that qualify as a reason? You are good to others for yourself? If you were really good ("the goodness of your own heart") then you would love your enemies also - being a force to end conflict, whether it works or not.

Do you always need a reason to help someone, Ecolox?

Yes (e.g. if someone didn't need any help, I probably wouldn't help them).

(September 10, 2009 at 3:33 pm)ecolox Wrote: Christians admit to not knowing the answer when they claim to have faith (they have a best guess, and they will (ideally) live as if they're sure). You assume that there is no reason for your existence because you don't know, and you assume that there is no god because you cannot see one. You then go on to make up your own reason for living that doesn't make any sense - because no one can live for no reason - you need something to grasp to...

Ace, I hope you don't mind my interjecting,

To clarify, We are not assuming there is no god. We disbelieve the notion that there is a god. There is a distinct difference between the two.

Quote:If everyone made up individualized reasons for existing then we would have conflict in the world, perhaps worse than we do - but if everyone accepted that God made this world and His will is for us to do unto others as we would be done by, then there could be no conflict.

In your pefect world maybe, but in the real world that never could and never will happen. In any case, what make you think the christian god is the only god if there were such a thing to begin with? Nibble on that for a while.

Quote:I can give evidence for God that suffices for you as easily as you can give an explanation as to why you exist that suffices for me.

We can't explain the inside of the universe, much less the outside. I think it's reasonable to stop trying to explain things once we have explained the universe.

How about you provide us with this evidence you talk about?

(September 10, 2009 at 3:42 pm)ecolox Wrote:

(September 10, 2009 at 12:43 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Quote:Does that qualify as a reason? You are good to others for yourself? If you were really good ("the goodness of your own heart") then you would love your enemies also - being a force to end conflict, whether it works or not.

Do you always need a reason to help someone, Ecolox?

Yes (e.g. if someone didn't need any help, I probably wouldn't help them).

Then let me rephrase that. Do you always need a motivator to help someone, Ecolox?