The bottom line is we Christians don't know where we get our morality from. Some of us who are stupid will say THE BIBLE but any atheist can call our bluff and show us how immoral the Bible is and watch us squirm. And squirm we do like a jelly fish fresh on the sand because we know what a manic bastard our God sounds in the Bible and what gross immorality is encouraged in the Bible. We know how God is said not just to be an infanticidal genocidal maniac but also one who encourages, nay commands, the Israelite soldiers to rape prepubescent girls after killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and infant sisters.

(September 12, 2012 at 11:58 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: The bottom line is, we don't know where we get our morality from.

All we do is appeal to phenomena that sounds like it might explain morality, and we confidently declare that we have a source of morality and it is good.

But really, at the end of the day we have no scientific evidence for it. Just call our bluff and watch us squirm.

You have a very short memory, or just refuse to accept the word of others. Everything you wrote? Not in my name.

(September 12, 2012 at 9:52 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(September 12, 2012 at 8:47 pm)genkaus Wrote: Yeah, right. Like you all aren't just doing it to get into heaven - you know, the ultimate imaginary benefit.

That's for each Christian to answer. But the Bible makes it clear: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works." Ephesians 2:8-9

So, you do not care whether or not you go to heaven.

(September 12, 2012 at 11:58 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: The bottom line is, we don't know where we get our morality from.

All we do is appeal to phenomena that sounds like it might explain morality, and we confidently declare that we have a source of morality and it is good.

But really, at the end of the day we have no scientific evidence for it. Just call our bluff and watch us squirm.

So we don't know where we get our morality from. So what of it? We know what we feel and how we think, but we can't trace all of it back to a specific source. We don't with certainty know which is mom's influence and which comes from elsewhere . But why does that matter to you?

I can already hear you asking but what's to stop the serial killer from thinking their moral sensibility is trustworthy. Perhaps you'd like to think that there is some rational procedure which would allow anyone to determine whether what they think of as moral really is so. Any one who would like to grapple with such a procedure already shows that they have certain pro-social inclinations. So I guess we all just have to deal with that doubt .. unless we choose to drink the kool ade.

(September 13, 2012 at 12:11 am)greneknight Wrote: The bottom line is we Christians don't know where we get our morality from. Some of us who are stupid will say THE BIBLE but any atheist can call our bluff and show us how immoral the Bible is and watch us squirm. And squirm we do like a jelly fish fresh on the sand because we know what a manic bastard our God sounds in the Bible and what gross immorality is encouraged in the Bible. We know how God is said not just to be an infanticidal genocidal maniac but also one who encourages, nay commands, the Israelite soldiers to rape prepubescent girls after killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and infant sisters.

You people are ridiculous if you think of Vinny even remotely as an atheist. He's a Christian fundy. When I was polite to him, he said he would answer my questions. Did I want to know whether he was a Christian, he asked. I replied in the affirmative. Did he give an answer? No, he suddenly raged that I was rude to him much earlier and he didn't want to reply.

Vinny is a fundy snake. If you guys continue to entertain this troll, he will infest this forum with his declarations on behalf of all atheists. As a fundy, he looks upon it as his God-given duty to do this so that others reading this threads will turn to Christianity because they'd think to themselves "Look! Vinny, an atheist, is saying atheism is wrong." Of course they don't know Vinny is a fundy.

I have the right to speak on behalf of Christians because I am a Christian. Holy Church declares me a faithful Christian and as a Christian and one who has served the Church all my life, I speak with the voice of God that we Christians are the most pathetic people when it comes to morality because we have a holy book that is so highly immoral anyone has got to be the most evil ogre to follow its precepts. I speak in all sincerity as a child of Holy Church, whereas Vinny is grossly dishonest when he pretends to be an atheist.

As a Christian, I say in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that Christianity is morally bankrupt and has no moral right to speak of right and wrong. We are like blind rats not knowing what is right and what is wrong because that which is repugnant to every decent human being is committed by our God and ordered by him, eg the raping of young girls and the killing of everyone including infants. I dare any other Christian to debate with me on this and I will smite his arguments with godly vigour.

(September 13, 2012 at 12:11 am)greneknight Wrote: The bottom line is we Christians don't know where we get our morality from. Some of us who are stupid will say THE BIBLE but any atheist can call our bluff and show us how immoral the Bible is and watch us squirm. And squirm we do like a jelly fish fresh on the sand because we know what a manic bastard our God sounds in the Bible and what gross immorality is encouraged in the Bible. We know how God is said not just to be an infanticidal genocidal maniac but also one who encourages, nay commands, the Israelite soldiers to rape prepubescent girls after killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and infant sisters.

Most Christians understand the OT God as merciful, compassionate and forgiving. Prior to each of his 'judgments' he gave warnings and allowed the people time to repent. If your view of God is that he is evil, but other parts of the Bible show him good, what do you make of such a contradicting God? If you say fabrication, there is no god to call good or bad. But if you entertain the possibility of this Christian God of the Bible being real and present, then you must resolve the apparent contradiction. Either God has changing moods, is evil, or has a good reason for everything he does--a reason you may not understand until you study the Bible further and let God into your heart. If he has changing moods, the NT God is the latest version and He is wonderful! If God seems evil, on what grounds? We are made in his image, able to see goodness and evil as He sees them. What would God gain by torturing us? Pleasure? You seem to put yourself above God, calling this pleasure wrong or illogical--using a standard He gave you, setting up God to do something that's already senseless in your mind. A strawman, if you will. Now the third possibility--that God has a decent reason--is the more plausible of the list in that it does not attempt to make God a dumber being than ourselves. A son does not understand what his father does until he is older, but he trusts his judgment. He may think being sent to his room a crass injustice. But the father loves his son then and now--through the lessons of the Old Testament to the harvesting of love in the New. And when the boy grows up, his eyes are opened.

I believe your real argument is not that God is evil, but that the scriptures were fabricated by man. That is a discussion for another time. Try reading a couple books by Christian theologians, such as Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God by Copan. Theologians are better experts on the Bible than a biologist like Richard Dawkins. A knowledgeable believer can reconcile the NT and OT Gods using the scriptures. We believe God is good, as evidenced by the sacrifice of His son Jesus. You believe God is evil, and base that judgment on hasty conclusions and popular media. This matter should not be taken lightly, but thoroughly investigated. Have you read the Bible completely through, Greneknight?

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote:

(September 13, 2012 at 12:11 am)greneknight Wrote: The bottom line is we Christians don't know where we get our morality from. Some of us who are stupid will say THE BIBLE but any atheist can call our bluff and show us how immoral the Bible is and watch us squirm. And squirm we do like a jelly fish fresh on the sand because we know what a manic bastard our God sounds in the Bible and what gross immorality is encouraged in the Bible. We know how God is said not just to be an infanticidal genocidal maniac but also one who encourages, nay commands, the Israelite soldiers to rape prepubescent girls after killing their fathers, mothers, brothers and infant sisters.

Most Christians understand the OT God as merciful, compassionate and forgiving. Prior to each of his 'judgments' he gave warnings and allowed the people time to repent.

You've got it wrong, deceived. In the OT, God gave a lot of warnings ONLY to the Jews. Never to the rest of humanity whom he hates. If you don't know that, you obviously haven't read your Bible. If you disagree with me on this, show me what warning he gave the Midianites, the people of Ai, Jericho, the Jebussites, the Hittites, and all the other "-ites". Even if he did warn them, what about the babies. Were they warned too and did they disobey. Killing infants and raping prepubescent girls must be the most disgracefully evil thing that only a crass, hardened, base, evil and repulsively repugnant monster can do and God, according to the OT, did it.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: If your view of God is that he is evil, but other parts of the Bible show him good, what do you make of such a contradicting God? If you say fabrication, there is no god to call good or bad. But if you entertain the possibility of this Christian God of the Bible being real and present, then you must resolve the apparent contradiction.

It's not an apparent contradiction. Let's not be mealy-mouthed. It's a contradiction. Face the truth for once, please. Obviously the book is wrong. God doesn't exist as a being. That's all bunkum, don't you see?

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: Either God has changing moods, is evil, or has a good reason for everything he does--a reason you may not understand until you study the Bible further and let God into your heart.

That is the most ludicrous suggestion I have ever heard in all my earthly existence. When a bastard is a seasoned infanticidal cum genocidal maniac (as the OT tells us God is) and if he orders soldiers to rape prepubescent girls after murdering their parents and brothers and infant sisters, such a bastard is EVIL beyond words. There can be no reason so compelling as to justify the action of such an uncompromisingly evil beastly bastard. What you are suggesting is I should have myself brainwashed so that I can believe in an evil filthy ogre and not allow his bastardy to affect my humanistic sense of justice. I'm afraid jettisoning my reason and rational thinking and having myself brainwashed is something I won't allow. If you allow yourself to be brainwashed, you could serve anyone - even the most beastly monster.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: If he has changing moods, the NT God is the latest version and He is wonderful!

No, I do not see the NT God to be wonderful. OK, his bastardy has been reduced and he no longer kills infants and orders the rape of prepubescent girls. But he's not much pleasanter either. He killed Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5. I'm only taking what the NT says. Of course I don't for a minute believe that there is a bogeyman in the sky who can do such a thing.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: If God seems evil, on what grounds?

Ho Ho Ho! You have the gall to ask on what grounds? On the grounds of human decency that thankfully you share too or you'd be going on a rape-cum-murder rampage and if you were to follow the Bible, you'd probably do it on a much grander scale.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: We are made in his image, able to see goodness and evil as He sees them.

Says who? Says the writer of that story that also talks about how God killed infants and ordered soldiers to rape prepubescent girls? Sorry, the writer of the story is a bastard himself to conceive such a nasty story in his dirty little head and he should have placed a rating on his work. I'm underaged and shouldn't read such smut as the Bible.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: What would God gain by torturing us? Pleasure? You seem to put yourself above God, calling this pleasure wrong or illogical--using a standard He gave you, setting up God to do something that's already senseless in your mind. A strawman, if you will.

How would I know what God would gain by torturing humans? Ask the writers of smut who wrote the x-rated Bible. They should know what they had in mind for their fictional Voldemort.

This is funny. You are saying God tortures people for pleasure. And I'm wrong to call this pleasure that God has wrong or illogical. So what are you saying? That I should say God's pleasure in torturing people is right and logical. Let God enjoy his sadistic pleasure in private.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: Now the third possibility--that God has a decent reason--is the more plausible of the list in that it does not attempt to make God a dumber being than ourselves. A son does not understand what his father does until he is older, but he trusts his judgment. He may think being sent to his room a crass injustice. But the father loves his son then and now--through the lessons of the Old Testament to the harvesting of love in the New. And when the boy grows up, his eyes are opened.

My eyes will open when I grow up. I don't know what I'll be when I grow up but I do hope I will never grow up to think it's all right for a genocidal infanticidal maniac to go on his rampage and to order soldiers to rape prepubescent girls and to send she-bears to rip apart 42 children who merely teased a prophet "bald head". I hope I will have the decency to despise such a fictional character and to hate it with all my heart and to grow up NOT to be like this filthy, vile and evil monstrosity.

(September 13, 2012 at 2:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: I believe your real argument is not that God is evil, but that the scriptures were fabricated by man. That is a discussion for another time. Try reading a couple books by Christian theologians, such as Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God by Copan. Theologians are better experts on the Bible than a biologist like Richard Dawkins. A knowledgeable believer can reconcile the NT and OT Gods using the scriptures. We believe God is good, as evidenced by the sacrifice of His son Jesus. You believe God is evil, and base that judgment on hasty conclusions and popular media. This matter should not be taken lightly, but thoroughly investigated. Have you read the Bible completely through, Greneknight?

No, of course I haven't read the whole Bible. It's boring and stupid. But I think you don't understand my stand. I do believe the Bible is fabricated by a bunch of ancient and ignorant men but I don't believe God exists as a being. I've discussed this with a few priests and they think it's a viable option although not all of them agree with me. I come to this conclusion after reading about God in the Bible. The Bible leads me to this conclusion.

God does not exist. But humans have culture. Our culture is Christian because of where we were born in. Stories are always told to make people conform and be better. Our stories take the shape of the Christian God. So, God is a metaphor for goodness truth and justice. But he (we use the personal pronoun by tradition) does not have independent will or thought because he's merely a metaphor.

This is the only way you can reconcile the Bible with the faith. The priests I told you about said this was one viable way to express my faith but I should remain under the "authority" of Holy Church. So, I should continue serving as an altar boy and until I was pulled out of the choir last Easter because I've reached an age when my voice is going to break, a choir boy. I've been an altar boy since 5 and a choir boy since 6. I'm not a rebellious person so I don't need to be an atheist. I have no ego issues so I don't mind genuflecting, bowing, kneeling, crossing myself, clasping my hands, carrying the candlesticks, carrying that ridiculously large ceremonial Bible, chanting, singing, praying, turning to the East and all the other things that some people might feel too proud to do.

@grene: No, I don't happen to think Vinny is an actual atheist, but I don't really give a shit. Anybody, atheist or theist, is free to make whatever argument they want and be judged on the merits of the case they present. This isn't a theistic, tribal society where they must present the correct shibboleth before they are accepted in. Your repeated raising the question of whether Vinny is an atheist is both badgering and a personal attack and frankly I'm sick of your shit. Everybody here is free to follow the dictates of their conscience and ye shall know them by their fruits. It's none of your fucking business. You aren't the forum police. Thankfully that job is already in competent hands.

And now in my anger, I've forgotten one of my points. Oh yeah.

@Undeceived:

As a Christian, who is not supposed to bear false witness, tell me truthfully, how many of the essays on the page I referenced did you actually read before dismissing them all as being inadequate and posting your rejection of them? I'm betting that the honest answer to the question is zero. But I'll let you tell us (or lie to us, as there's nothing to prevent you here.... is there?).

My more substantial question to you is, if indeed God has created morality, and fashioned us as creatures with a moral sense, just exactly how did he do it? Obviously, there were moral societies before the bible, and moral people who are completely unfamiliar with the bible, so obviously it couldn't be that his main way of communicating a moral sense was the bible. Do you suppose, perhaps, that he designed us to have a moral sense, naturally, say by programming it in our genes? If so, how do we tell the difference between morality being written in our genes because God designed us that way, and morality being in our genes as a result of evolution? And if morality isn't in the bible or in our genes, then how do we get this morality from God? (Show your work. No, "I don't know. He works in mysterious ways." You've made the claim that morality flows from God to man. Now all you have to do is demonstrate how. Should be a cinch for someone who is Undeceived...)

(September 12, 2012 at 9:52 pm)Undeceived Wrote: That's for each Christian to answer.

You're a Christian and you didn't answer. Just evaded.

(September 12, 2012 at 9:52 pm)Undeceived Wrote: But the Bible makes it clear: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works." Ephesians 2:8-9

And what did you have to do to get this "gift"?

(September 13, 2012 at 7:58 am)apophenia Wrote:


@grene: No, I don't happen to think Vinny is an actual atheist, but I don't really give a shit.

You don't have to tell me. I don't give a shit what you think.

Quote: Anybody, atheist or theist, is free to make whatever argument they want and be judged on the merits of the case they present. This isn't a theistic, tribal society where they must present the correct shibboleth before they are accepted in. Your repeated raising the question of whether Vinny is atheist is both badgering and a personal attack and frankly I'm sick of your shit. Everybody here is free to follow the dictates of their conscience and ye shall know them by their fruits. It's none of your fucking business. You aren't the forum police. Thankfully that job is already in competent hands.

I have every right to point out that Vinny is dishonest in his replies and that he isn't telling the truth. It's none of your bloody business if I write my own observation. Who the hell do you think you are? Thank God you aren't the forum police. I have as much right to express my view that Vinny is not an atheist although he pretends to be and if you don't like reading what I post, you are at liberty to put me on ignore. I don't give a shit what you think. If you are sick, go see a doctor.

Quote: And now in my anger, I've forgotten one of my points.

You don't have to tell us that. We are not interested in what you can remember or can't. Place me on ignore - it's good for your blood pressure. I don't enjoy reading your rant either.