(September 17, 2012 at 5:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: And it is worth noting that in a dogfight, in biplanes no less, shooting down enemy bombers capable of moving faster than you? Yeahhh, that actually is some crazy levels of skill, because you basically had to line up the target head-on and take it down, because if you didn't, by the time you turned and started opening fire the bomber was already getting out of effective range of your guns. And hitting a head-on target couldn't be very easy to do in those days.

Spot on with your tactical knowledge, but I think it is also worth a mention that there were often up to twenty enemy fighters with the bombers as well.

A bit of gossip here a loose relation of mine was an engineer with them, and he told a story that the tail of one Gloucester Gladiators was so shot up that they had to build a whole back section from scratch. As they did not have the parts they had to utilise a good deal of scrap iron just to hold it together.

(September 17, 2012 at 5:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY! XD A_T really does look constantly pissed off. XD


I DID actually forget to mention the Ho-229 as being the forerunner to modern stealth aircraft. It wasn't remarkably stealthy but for its time it was cutting edge...and in all likelihood inspired modern stealth designs. Maybe not designs like the F-117 but certainly designs like the F-22 and F-35 JSF...and DEFINITELY it was a heavy influence on the design of the B-2 Spirit.

Jack Northrop, the founder of Northrop aviation( builder of the B-2) had been experimenting with all wing designs starting in 1929. Well before the Horten brothers.

In fact at about the same time the Horten 229 was being built, Northrop was building this....

(September 17, 2012 at 6:57 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(September 17, 2012 at 5:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY! XD A_T really does look constantly pissed off. XD


I DID actually forget to mention the Ho-229 as being the forerunner to modern stealth aircraft. It wasn't remarkably stealthy but for its time it was cutting edge...and in all likelihood inspired modern stealth designs. Maybe not designs like the F-117 but certainly designs like the F-22 and F-35 JSF...and DEFINITELY it was a heavy influence on the design of the B-2 Spirit.

Jack Northrop, the founder of Northrop aviation( builder of the B-2) had been experimenting with all wing designs starting in 1929. Well before the Horten brothers.

In fact at about the same time the Horten 229 was being built, Northrop was building this....

That is one awesome piece of machinery!......even for its time.....

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(September 17, 2012 at 2:54 am)Cinjin Wrote: d-damn Theist, is this really you??

You look so angry man? Why? I thought you had jesus in your heart? I've seen pictures of POWs who looked happier than you.

What are you guys talking about....I am smiling!....You're not looking close enough!....It's there! See it?

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(September 17, 2012 at 5:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY! XD A_T really does look constantly pissed off. XD

Also; I completely agree, the history channel needs to be more about history and less about pop culture and reality TV. I fucking despise reality TV. I hate it with a passion. WHY is it encroaching onto every fucking channel?!

On track: So THAT was the 163?? I remember seeing a documentary about bombers in WWII and there is this one where it shows one of those planes diving right into and then through a B-25 Mitchell. Didn't even go for the wing, the thing just cut the bomber clear in half. The jet kept dropping, went straight down, no ejection; the pilot was probably killed by the impact, even though the plane was largely intact. Fuck, you had to be crazy to basically plow your plane into another and actually hope to survive to eject. Crazy or brainwashed. Or stupid. Or all of the above. Most likely all of the above. These WERE Nazis, after all.

I DID actually forget to mention the Ho-229 as being the forerunner to modern stealth aircraft. It wasn't remarkably stealthy but for its time it was cutting edge...and in all likelihood inspired modern stealth designs. Maybe not designs like the F-117 but certainly designs like the F-22 and F-35 JSF...and DEFINITELY it was a heavy influence on the design of the B-2 Spirit.

And it is worth noting that in a dogfight, in biplanes no less, shooting down enemy bombers capable of moving faster than you? Yeahhh, that actually is some crazy levels of skill, because you basically had to line up the target head-on and take it down, because if you didn't, by the time you turned and started opening fire the bomber was already getting out of effective range of your guns. And hitting a head-on target couldn't be very easy to do in those days.

I know that during the Korean War, prop planes were bringing down MIG-15's. The pilots flying the propeller planes would bait the MIGs into a mountain valley where it was at a disadvantage to maneuver because it was moving too fast and its turning radius was too wide. The slower propeller plane had the advantage of maneuvering in tighter places, had a tighter turning radius, and had an easier time bringing down the MIG. Technology's one thing, but tactics is key.

(September 17, 2012 at 7:59 am)A Theist Wrote: What are you guys talking about....I am smiling!....You're not looking close enough!....It's there! See it?

Ah yes, I see it its just like Obama's

Quote:And it is worth noting that in a dogfight, in biplanes no less, shooting down enemy bombers capable of moving faster than you? Yeahhh, that actually is some crazy levels of skill, because you basically had to line up the target head-on and take it down, because if you didn't, by the time you turned and started opening fire the bomber was already getting out of effective range of your guns. And hitting a head-on target couldn't be very easy to do in those days.

Quote:I know that during the Korean War, prop planes were bringing down MIG-15's. The pilots flying the propeller planes would bait the MIGs into a mountain valley where it was at a disadvantage to maneuver because it was moving too fast and its turning radius was too wide. The slower propeller plane had the advantage of maneuvering in tighter places, had a tighter turning radius, and had an easier time bringing down the MIG. Technology's one thing, but tactics is key.

There's no problem in going HO with a bomber in any fighter, bombers generally didn't have much in the way of forward armament and even when they did it wasn't like they could swivel the nose and bring it to bear. A HO in a bi-plane against a mono-plane fighter of a similar manufacture as the bomber would be more impressive. The lack of long range escorts early on made bombers pretty easy pickings for anything with a gun and wings. Doesn't matter if the bomber is faster, you know where it's headed, you need only be there before it is to intercept.

On the subject of MIG conceding the HY-Y to prop planes and flying into a valley..I wouldn't call that tactics winning the day, I'd call that operator error on part of the MIG pilots. Why these guys decided to dogfight in a valley rather than pick off their enemies in the vert can only be explained by hubris and poor training.

(September 17, 2012 at 8:55 am)jonb Wrote:

(September 17, 2012 at 7:59 am)A Theist Wrote: What are you guys talking about....I am smiling!....You're not looking close enough!....It's there! See it?

Ah yes, I see it its just like Obama's

HA HA!!! .....See. I told you guys that I was smiling! Plain as day!

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(September 17, 2012 at 9:18 am)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:And it is worth noting that in a dogfight, in biplanes no less, shooting down enemy bombers capable of moving faster than you? Yeahhh, that actually is some crazy levels of skill, because you basically had to line up the target head-on and take it down, because if you didn't, by the time you turned and started opening fire the bomber was already getting out of effective range of your guns. And hitting a head-on target couldn't be very easy to do in those days.

Quote:I know that during the Korean War, prop planes were bringing down MIG-15's. The pilots flying the propeller planes would bait the MIGs into a mountain valley where it was at a disadvantage to maneuver because it was moving too fast and its turning radius was too wide. The slower propeller plane had the advantage of maneuvering in tighter places, had a tighter turning radius, and had an easier time bringing down the MIG. Technology's one thing, but tactics is key.

There's no problem in going HO with a bomber in any fighter, bombers generally didn't have much in the way of forward armament and even when they did it wasn't like they could swivel the nose and bring it to bear. A HO in a bi-plane against a mono-plane fighter of a similar manufacture as the bomber would be more impressive. The lack of long range escorts early on made bombers pretty easy pickings for anything with a gun and wings. Doesn't matter if the bomber is faster, you know where it's headed, you need only be there before it is to intercept.

On the subject of MIG conceding the HY-Y to prop planes and flying into a valley..I wouldn't call that tactics winning the day, I'd call that operator error on part of the MIG pilots. Why these guys decided to dogfight in a valley rather than pick off their enemies in the vert can only be explained by hubris and poor training.

...sure it would be tactics if the prop pilot can identify the over-confidence and poor training of the pilot flying the MIG....I agree that it doesn't make sense why a MIG pilot would follow a prop into a narrow valley...definitely had to be a generous mixture of over-confidence and very poor training.

(September 17, 2012 at 10:10 am)A Theist Wrote:

(September 17, 2012 at 8:55 am)jonb Wrote: Ah yes, I see it its just like Obama's

HA HA!!! .....See. I told you guys that I was smiling! Plain as day!

That's not a smile. You are grimacing!

(September 17, 2012 at 5:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: On track: So THAT was the 163?? I remember seeing a documentary about bombers in WWII and there is this one where it shows one of those planes diving right into and then through a B-25 Mitchell. Didn't even go for the wing, the thing just cut the bomber clear in half. The jet kept dropping, went straight down, no ejection; the pilot was probably killed by the impact, even though the plane was largely intact. Fuck, you had to be crazy to basically plow your plane into another and actually hope to survive to eject. Crazy or brainwashed. Or stupid. Or all of the above. Most likely all of the above. These WERE Nazis, after all.

I DID actually forget to mention the Ho-229 as being the forerunner to modern stealth aircraft. It wasn't remarkably stealthy but for its time it was cutting edge...and in all likelihood inspired modern stealth designs. Maybe not designs like the F-117 but certainly designs like the F-22 and F-35 JSF...and DEFINITELY it was a heavy influence on the design of the B-2 Spirit.

1. To say Ho-229 was the forerunner of modern stealth aircraft is total sensationalist bullshit. Ho-229 was conceived without any inkling that radar invisibility was possible, much less with the intention of achieving it. The flying wing concept embodied in ho-229 was neither ahead of its time, nor did its actual implementation have any impact on subsequent flying wings.

Ho-229 had no impact on subsequent aviation history, and got luckY in achieving effects it didn't know existed. The rest is German wonder weapon fantasy.

2. Me-163 was not designed to ram. It was designed to take down bombers with 30 mm cannons and then land back on skids. The Germans did actually make special fighters for ramming, but those were modified conventional propeller fighters. There was indeed a flying wing ram fighter, but it wasn't designed by fanatical nazis, it was designed by non-fanatical Americans. Specifically it was designed by jack Northrop and designated xp-79. Look it up.

(September 17, 2012 at 10:29 am)Chuck Wrote:

(September 17, 2012 at 5:14 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: On track: So THAT was the 163?? I remember seeing a documentary about bombers in WWII and there is this one where it shows one of those planes diving right into and then through a B-25 Mitchell. Didn't even go for the wing, the thing just cut the bomber clear in half. The jet kept dropping, went straight down, no ejection; the pilot was probably killed by the impact, even though the plane was largely intact. Fuck, you had to be crazy to basically plow your plane into another and actually hope to survive to eject. Crazy or brainwashed. Or stupid. Or all of the above. Most likely all of the above. These WERE Nazis, after all.

I DID actually forget to mention the Ho-229 as being the forerunner to modern stealth aircraft. It wasn't remarkably stealthy but for its time it was cutting edge...and in all likelihood inspired modern stealth designs. Maybe not designs like the F-117 but certainly designs like the F-22 and F-35 JSF...and DEFINITELY it was a heavy influence on the design of the B-2 Spirit.

1. To say Ho-229 was the forerunner of modern stealth aircraft is total sensationalist bullshit. Ho-229 was conceived without any inkling that radar invisibility was possible, much less with the intention of achieving it. The flying wing concept embodied in ho-229 was neither ahead of its time, nor did its actual implementation have any impact on subsequent flying wings.

Ho-229 had no impact on subsequent aviation history, and got luckY in achieving effects it didn't know existed. The rest is German wonder weapon fantasy.

2. Me-163 was not designed to ram. It was designed to take down bombers with 30 mm cannons and then land back on skids. The Germans did actually make special fighters for ramming, but those were modified conventional propeller fighters. There was indeed a flying wing ram fighter, but it wasn't designed by fanatical nazis, it was designed by non-fanatical Americans. Specifically it was designed by jack Northrop and designated xp-79. Look it up.

That's true, the Me-163 was not designed to ram but they still used the tactic. It had a short flight time in the air, around 6-7 minutes, somewhere between a 20-25 mile range, and only about three seconds to aim and fire its canons at a target....but I believe the pilots also resorted to flying it into a squadron of bombers to shear parts off of them.....Here's some interesting pics and info on some of Germany's WWII aircraft....

http://b-29s-over-korea.com/German-Jets-...I_pg1.html

In their desparation, the Luftwaffe did resort to extracting oaths from their pilots to the effect of each of them won't come back alive from a sortie if he didn't down an allied bomber during the sortie. So I don't doubt some pilots resorted to ramming.

But Me-163 was little used during WWII because of its operational limitations. It was a straight up and down point defense interceptor. It wasn't meant to establish air superiority over any area. It was meant to defend just a small point target by going almost straight up, use its speed to evade enemy fighters to go directly for the bombers, and then come straight down. Because Me-163's rocket engines had very short fuel range, it generally used up its fuel during an extremely rapid initial climb and a very fast attack, and it had to glide back unpowered. As a result, it was unstoppable on the way up, and totally helpless before allied fighters on the way down. Also the rocket engine was extremely tempermental, and the residual unburned fuel is liable to explode if the landing was too rough. I believe there were actually no confirmed case where an Me-163 actually downed an allied bomber.