(September 18, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 18, 2012 at 5:15 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Coming out of the cave, can be said coming out of what you think you are due to false perception of society, to what you really are.

Something that scares me, is how we look at the people of the past, and their morality, and we look at them negatively.

When we come out and see the sun, how will see ourselves?

Perhaps it's a grace from God that we are designed so we will be not see it, till we ourselves evolve out of the cave so we would have no shame.

Well, we also see people of the past as noble, heroic, and good. It doesn't seem too presumptuous to suggest that we may see our selves (as relics of the past) with the same mix of positive and negative value judgements...whatever they may one day be.

That's true, it's just that right now it's hard to see the "evil" side of us.

I know when I was all into Islam, it was hard to see anything negative in Islamic teachings.

I would say a lot of Islamic teaching are morphed shadows - blinding us to the core goodness/command/morality/beauty/honor in us. For example, killing apostates, blinds us to mercy, compassion, and tolerance. Disbelievers being fried in hell and to be hated by God, blinds us to love and forbearance. It's morphing of how justice should be applied.

But when you into the zone, we want to stay in the cave and all the shadows seem like it's the Sun (absolute truth/absolute morality/absolute justice).

(September 18, 2012 at 5:08 pm)genkaus Wrote: I disagree with your interpretation of the allegory - namely that the religious doctrine is the shadow and atheists are the people who have seen the real world - for a completely different reason. Basically, I don't see that there is anything chaining the people and forcing them to look only at the doctrine. They are free to look away, free to see the real world and yet they don't.

All right, I'll give you as much to say that theists are able to look away from doctrine freely, in a literal sense. The allegory of the cave is not a literal interpretation, but I agree with your idea that we are able to look away from doctrine if we so choose. In the cave, the chains imply that the prisoners cannot see the truth no mater how hard they try. This interpretation is not applicable to today's world, as you stated, because we can see the truth.

My point about Zeus and Posiedon was to refer to a time when humans really didn't know the truth. In the allegory, the man returns to the cave, but the cave dwellers don't believe him. However, in modern society, the chains are much less physical than metaphorical. The theists can leave the cave, but they don't. The metaphorical chains are the desire to believe. Correct me if I am wrong, but I would assume that most theists want god and heaven to exist. Some of them may ignore atheistic arguments because they have don't want to believe that he isn't real. I'm sure that there are many theists who have other reasons for believing, and I'm not saying that the allegory applies to all theists, but at least to some. The cave refers to the times when religion originated, so when they base their belief in a diety off of a religion created by dwellers of the cave, it makes it seem like they are still in the cave themselves, in a sense.

(September 18, 2012 at 7:08 pm)Darkstar Wrote: All right, I'll give you as much to say that theists are able to look away from doctrine freely, in a literal sense. The allegory of the cave is not a literal interpretation, but I agree with your idea that we are able to look away from doctrine if we so choose. In the cave, the chains imply that the prisoners cannot see the truth no mater how hard they try. This interpretation is not applicable to today's world, as you stated, because we can see the truth.

My point about Zeus and Posiedon was to refer to a time when humans really didn't know the truth. In the allegory, the man returns to the cave, but the cave dwellers don't believe him. However, in modern society, the chains are much less physical than metaphorical. The theists can leave the cave, but they don't. The metaphorical chains are the desire to believe. Correct me if I am wrong, but I would assume that most theists want god and heaven to exist. Some of them may ignore atheistic arguments because they have don't want to believe that he isn't real. I'm sure that there are many theists who have other reasons for believing, and I'm not saying that the allegory applies to all theists, but at least to some. The cave refers to the times when religion originated, so when they base their belief in a diety off of a religion created by dwellers of the cave, it makes it seem like they are still in the cave themselves, in a sense.

Two points.

Firstly, I got your point about the chains being metaphorical. Something like people being bound by the chains of their desire for god and an afterlife. My objection to that comes from the fact that atheists aren't necessarily free from those chains either. I'm sure there are atheists who'd find it more comfortable to believe that there is someone up there looking out for them or who find the idea of cessation of their existence terrifying. Which is why, I just don't see those chains being strong enough to keep one from truth. Not unless it's not so much that they are bound by their desires but they don't want to let go either.

Secondly, I think the same concept applies to the ancient world as well. For example, out of the Hindu schools of philosophy of ancient India, quite a few of them were atheistic. Which means, even in times of Zeus and Poseidon, there were people who were capable of thinking rationally - who were capable of looking away from the shadows and seeing the world as it is. So the principle of self-confinement applied as much then as it does today.

Quote:it is just easier for humans to wallow in delusion

We have a gaggle of jesus freaks around here who are walking evidence of that.

(September 18, 2012 at 7:41 pm)genkaus Wrote: Which is why, I just don't see those chains being strong enough to keep one from truth. Not unless it's not so much that they are bound by their desires but they don't want to let go either.

Okay, I think I understand what you mean now. It's true that many theists do not want to leave, and so they don't even try to break the chains, which was my main point. However, there is one dissconnection between the allegory and reality: those who've questioned their faith and still believe. If they don't want to believe (or don't have a desire strong enough to interfere with their judgement), question their faith, and yet still do believe, then...well it's a mystery why they still do (ignorance?). For those people, the allegory wouldn't apply.

Avast ye. Quivering bilge rats every man jack of them, hiding away below decks, When the shanty is a playing and sheets to be pulled, Lubbers all and they be grog soaks to boot. Arrgh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGyPuey-1...re=related

(September 18, 2012 at 3:51 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Is anyone here familiar with Plato's Allegory of the Cave? We discussed it in english class the other day, and I found it to be strikingly applicable to religion.

Considering Plato basically worshiped God of the philosophers by all we can tell of the man, it iss not surprising that this book of the Republic, with the 3 analogies for his Form of the Good (God), would be appealing to religious. After all early Christianity found its closest ally in Platonic philosophy and old grumpy Nietzsche rightly calls Christianity 'platonism of the masses'.

Alright thread starter...I love you. This is my favorite of all Plato's works.

I've done DMT dozens of times, and the similarity between the triptamine plane of existence and the real world in the allegory are metaphorically the same. One grounded in this reality can't hope to understand but that world is as foreign as the cave dweller's surface. Being here is akin to watching the shadows, but breaking through is like being born again. Our reality seems like a dream to me now because I've been somewhere way more real. And every now and then in the trips I see something that vaguely reminds me of our planet, like when the prisoner sees his own shadow. You just made me smile guy. : D

Quote: She dreamed one night that she had written a poem so beautiful, so wise, so close to the ultimate truth of life that she was immediately acclaimed
by all the peoples on the earth as the greatest poet and philosopher of all the ages. Still half asleep as the dream ended, she stumbled out of bed and
scribbled the poem down, realizing that she must take no risk of forgetting such deathless lines. She awoke in the morning with the feeling that something
wonderful was about to happen — oh, yes! Her poem.

She clutched the precious paper and, tense with excitement, read the words she had written. Here they are:

Hogamus Higamus
Men are Polygamous
Higamus Hogamus
Women Monogamous

— Claire MacMurray, newspaper article, 1939