(October 30, 2012 at 1:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You are right. I'm talking more about praise as in moral praise, worth, that type of thing.

Well I'm not saying all of it's "pure instinct". It has structure, but it's driven by instinct. So subjective value has some structure. If it didn't have any structure, we wouldn't function.

I like lasagna more then chicken, therefore I value lasagna more then chicken. Yes I like lasagna more. It makes me happier when I eat lasagna. Therefore it's more valuable to me. This subjective. But a lot of this chaotic. For example, when I was a kid, I read garfield books. Garfield liked lasagna a lot. Then I had a passion for it. This passion remains. It's passion.

So you do understand that your own authority is all that matters on the subject of what you personally value...that there is no point in arguing objectivity in preference?

Quote:In the case of myths, they are not without structure either. They are as valuable as they work for a human and provide structure to society. They mean something to that human. But it's driven by passion at it's basis.

The trouble with the structure of myth is that they refer to the authority of something that cannot be demonstrated to exist (even in whatever limited way that you can be demonstrated to exist). So, if you and I have a difference of opinion (value or "praiseworthiness") we can both explain on our own authority, as two creatures that we can both agree exist (non-existent things have precisely how much authority?) why we prefer one thing over another. We still may not agree, but at least we aren't invoking ghosts as excuses for our own value judgements.

-Which is all that we are referring to when we say that something is "praiseworthy"-

(October 31, 2012 at 11:55 am)Rhythm Wrote: So you do understand that your own authority is all that matters on the subject of what you personally value...that there is no point in arguing objectivity in preference?

Do we have an authority? In my perception, I look for a "spiritual metaphysical guide voice" within the soul. But if I believe something is true simply because I believe it, then this very irrational.

Do we really have an authority to chose to prefer one action over another?

Or as some Christians say, are we turning ourselves into false gods?

Quote:The trouble with the structure of myth is that they refer to the authority of something that cannot be demonstrated to exist (even in whatever limited way that you can be demonstrated to exist). So, if you and I have a difference of opinion (value or "praiseworthiness") we can both explain on our own authority, as two creatures that we can both agree exist (non-existent things have precisely how much authority?) why we prefer one thing over another. We still may not
agree, but at least we aren't invoking ghosts as excuses for our own value judgements.

That is true. But if we don't believe we are right or if there is any basis to our judgement, we wouldn't be making any judgements either.

I think Starcraft 2 is one of the best games invented ever. I enjoy it a lot.

Another person thinks games are a waste of time.

But we are just following our passions here. But I can't really love Starcraft 2 as much as I do, if I don't believe it's one of the best games ever invented either.

(October 31, 2012 at 12:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Do we have an authority?

Do we? You tell me, is someone else an authority on what you prefer? If you say that you value red more than blue, and someone else says that you value blue more than red...who's authority should I accept with regards to your values?

Quote: In my perception, I look for a "spiritual metaphysical guide voice" within the soul. But if I believe something is true simply because I believe it, then this very irrational.

Curiously this authority must still be "within" you somehow, why do you suppose that is? Do you like red because you believe you like red?

Quote:Do we really have an authority to chose to prefer one action over another?

Or as some Christians say, are we turning ourselves into false gods?

Is there some other kind of god? lol. Choosing an action and choosing what to value aren't entirely equivalent, now are they? To say that you are an authority on your favorite color does not imply that you have the authority to take certain action based upon your preference (and authority over it).

Quote:That is true. But if we don't believe we are right or if there is any basis to our judgement, we wouldn't be making any judgements either.

It would be difficult to imagine how you could be "wrong" about your own opinions, so long as they were consistent, and even then, I don't know that being inconsistent equates to being wrong.

Quote:I think Starcraft 2 is one of the best games invented ever. I enjoy it a lot.

Another person thinks games are a waste of time.

The two of you can elaborate upon your position, suppose I say that it is one of the best games ever because it is well polished, the ui is intuitive, and further develops a wildly succesful IP. I promise you that some bean counter at Blizzard made this exact case as impassionately as a rock.

Quote:But we are just following our passions here. But I can't really love Starcraft 2 as much as I do, if I don't believe it's one of the best games ever invented either.

If the subject is passion, specifically your own, what other authority applies?

Case in point. In Christianity and Islam, there is both "Devils" and "Holy Spirit" within humans. Maybe in another myth, they are descirbed as "two wolves". In Shia traditions, there is a list of virtues described as "armies of knowledge" and then a list of vices listed "armies of ignorance". There is also "armies of darkness" and "armies of light". Of course, this reflects some instinct beliefs in values we have. They are not totally without basis.

In Islam our actions are a living reality connected to the soul. We will see our actions to one degree in the "barzakh" after death, and then finally gain fully awakened vision to our actions on the "day of judgement". That is when we truly get to know our worth and the worth of all our actions.

But how do our actions even remain a part of us. Why do we need to regret our evil actions for them to be "erased" from us? In Islam, God forgives you if you repent sincerely. Then you should seek to purify yourself from the effect of sins.

But what is the "effect of sins". It's all created by belief. I believed going to dances was wrong from Islam point of view. If I kissed a girl, I would feel it's evil. If I believe in purity and impurity, I need to wash myself from the effects of sin.

But is there such a thing as "impurity"? Or purity?

To a Muslim, it is. So he sees "impurity" and "purity". Just because he has a concept of it, doesn't make it true. In the same way, just because we have a concept of an action being praiseworthy, doesn't make it praiseworthy or if even such a thing is possible.

Really mystic...are you insane?? WHY are you worrying about such nonexistent trifles??

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Or are you trying to tell me that ALL muslims are insane? hock:

How do I need authority to praise someone? I am only offering my own opinion and it should be obvious that I am doing so. If I say "Bill is a great guy and does a lot of good for the community" it is almost certainly understood by anyone who would read/listen (even if they think Bill is a total jackass) that I am neither stating an objective fact nor am I attempting to do so.

Praise is simply one way for a person to tell the truth as they see it. It only becomes delusional if you insist that it is a truth every person must subscribe to.

(October 31, 2012 at 11:42 am)MysticKnight Wrote: What is the basis to any of this praise?

Well, a lot of people praise themselves or others because they think that it is beneficial, but I think most people do it because they believe that it is deserved. And I think that people believe that praise is deserved because they believe that people are responsible for their good actions, intentions, emotions, thoughts, etc.

(October 31, 2012 at 12:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Do we? You tell me, is someone else an authority on what you prefer?

Well I once had a dream that I was riding a giant cougar. When I woke up, intuitively, I said my desire is getting strong, and I probably need to get married, before it's out of control. I took that it's tamed now, but it's huge.

So we have a desire, but in Islam for example, we need to "subdue that desire" and control it, by "knowledge of virtue".

In bleach, Ichigo had at one point been taken over by "demon" part of him, and had to do battle, to tame it. It was only when he realized he was that entity, that he could subdue to him. I don't know, maybe the author of bleach is trying to teach us something

Maybe we do have "spiritual guide" and "demon" within us, and we need both, and we need power of both, but it's all about balance.

Quote: If you say that you value red more than blue, and someone else says that you value blue more than red...who's authority should I accept with regards to your values?

I don't see the point you are making.

Quote:Curiously this authority must still be "within" you somehow, why do you suppose that is? Do you like red because you believe you like red?

I don't know, I am confused. I don't even know why we prefer one thing over another. Maybe we shouldn't "prefer" one colour over another, but society taught us to pick favorites, like asking what is your favorite colour while we are children, and then we thought we must have a favorite. I really don't know.

I think personally my favorite food is lasagna primarily because of reading garfield as a kid.

Quote:Is there some other kind of god? lol. Choosing an action and choosing what to value aren't entirely equivalent, now are they? To say that you are an authority on your favorite color does not imply that you have the authority to take certain action based upon your preference (and authority over it).

They aren't equivalent, but they are linked. Sep 11, the hijackers would not have done what they done, if they didn't believe in what they were doing. Did they have the right to chose what they did? Or to even to chose to believe they should?

Quote:It would be difficult to imagine how you could be "wrong" about your own opinions, so long as they were consistent, and even then, I don't know that being inconsistent equates to being wrong.

That's the thing, subjectively, there is no right or wrong.

Quote:The two of you can elaborate upon your position, suppose I say that it is one of the best games ever because it is well polished, the ui is intuitive, and further develops a wildly succesful IP. I promise you that some bean counter at Blizzard made this exact case as impassionately as a rock.

But when we thought it was one of the best games, did we do so based on analytical reasoning, or is simply properly basic perception, that cannot be justified by words?

Quote:If the subject is passion, specifically your own, what other authority applies?

Passion is an authority now?

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(October 31, 2012 at 12:27 pm)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Really mystic...are you insane?? WHY are you worrying about such nonexistent trifles??

Because I am seeking direction and certainty.

You are clearly over intellectualising living day by day Mystic.

Have you considered that the "Cougar" may represent investment in a cat food company?

Have you considered that living has no rules and we "make it up as we go along" Pragmatism might work in well here.

Have you considered that your religion has poorly prepared you for REAL life?

Have you considered that you "passions" are the very motivation you NEED to move towards you desired outcomes?

IF you have NOT considered at least the few things then izslam has done you a great disservice my dear.

(October 31, 2012 at 12:36 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote:

(October 31, 2012 at 11:42 am)MysticKnight Wrote: What is the basis to any of this praise?

Well, a lot of people do it because they think it helps, but I think most people do it because they believe that it is deserved. And I think people believe they deserve things because they believe that they are responsible for their good or bad, actions, intentions, emotions or thoughts.

Exactly, they believe it's praiseworthy. As I said, belief in praise is foundational. But is it justified? Saying we believe it's praiseworthy makes it's praiseworthy is circular reasoning though.

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(October 31, 2012 at 12:42 pm)KichigaiNeko Wrote: You are clearly over intellectualising living day by day Mystic.

Have you considered that the "Cougar" may represent investment in a cat food company?

Have you considered that living has no rules and we "make it up as we go along" Pragmatism might work in well here.

Have you considered that your religion has poorly prepared you for REAL life?

Have you considered that you "passions" are the very motivation you NEED to move towards you desired outcomes?

IF you have NOT considered at least the few things then izslam has done you a great disservice my dear.

There maybe a reason most humanity hates philosophy, and thinks philosophy is a waste of time.

Because it's best to live irrationally. Without thinking things through. That is how animals live. And we were once animals.

Unfortunately, our drive for wisdom, made us evolve to what we are, but at the same time, having never found it or justified, all our wisdom maybe a delusion.

I want to know sophia. I want to know beautiful wisdom. But maybe wisdom is not so beautiful. But I am driven by a passion for it.