I think the bottom line to this whole issue of piracy is this:

There is no stopping it. Illegal downloading of music, software and movies are ongoing every day, every minute, every second. You can be as "anti-piracy" as you want but its not gonna change the situation. You'd be doing the right thing and you'd have good conscience as well, no doubt about it, but it is not even going to make a dent. While you stand firm in your righteous actions, people are still enjoying the latest music albums and movies at no cost. lol

It's definitely good to support the cause for helping musicians and the likes, but I just think this is an issue that isn't going to ever end.

(October 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm)Meatball Wrote: If my friend plays a CD for me to show me a hot new song, is that stealing?

Nope.

(October 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm)Meatball Wrote: If my friend just clues me into that song and I download it, is that stealing?

Yes.

(October 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm)Meatball Wrote: If I buy a used CD with that song on it, is that stealing?

Nope, the same way you can buy a vase and then sell it in a garage sale. When you purchase an item you buy the rights to use that item within a specific purview and that includes giving it to someone else or reselling it as used. However, ripping it and putting it out there for people to take for free violates terms of use and copyright laws, for good reason because it cuts into someone's profits.

(October 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm)Meatball Wrote: As far as the record company and the artist are concerned, those three actions are the same. The laws are fucked up, the copyright supporters' motives are fucked up, and if it were up to them you'd pay every time you listen to a song.

No they're not the same, and I have yet to hear any record company claim hearing a song is stealing. That's ridiculous. Artists don't want to make you pay for every time you hear their songs, they just want to make a living. While I may agree that record companies don't have the best practices, they still have a right to make money on the product they are selling. It's tricky, I know, because unlike a vase, technology exists to make duplications and then things get sketchy. However I think the current laws are reasonable.

I think the laws, in general, are reasonable. Sorry they don't let you have anything you want for free, but if you were on the other side of the coin you would appreciate how these laws protect artists of all types. People have the right to produce something and sell it, this how people make a living regardless of whether they are rich, or merely get by month to month.

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(October 9, 2009 at 1:47 pm)Retorth Wrote: I think the bottom line to this whole issue of piracy is this:

There is no stopping it. Illegal downloading of music, software and movies are ongoing every day, every minute, every second. You can be as "anti-piracy" as you want but its not gonna change the situation. You'd be doing the right thing and you'd have good conscience as well, no doubt about it, but it is not even going to make a dent. While you stand firm in your righteous actions, people are still enjoying the latest music albums and movies at no cost. lol

It's definitely good to support the cause for helping musicians and the likes, but I just think this is an issue that isn't going to ever end.

So claiming there's no stopping it makes it okay? I don't think so. Saying there's no stopping murder because people do it every day and people often get away with it, doesn't make it any less wrong.

You are justified in doing what you can to mitigate the instances, preventing murder whenever possible as well as preventing piracy. Your argument is a perfect solution fallacy. Just because people are still going to steal, does not make it right or legal and if you get caught, you should pay the consequences.

(October 9, 2009 at 1:52 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: So claiming there's no stopping it makes it okay? I don't think so. Saying there's no stopping murder because people do it every day and people often get away with it, doesn't make it any less wrong.

You are justified in doing what you can to mitigate the instances, preventing murder whenever possible as well as preventing piracy. Your argument is a perfect solution fallacy. Just because people are still going to steal, does not make it right or legal and if you get caught, you should pay the consequences.

When did I say it was ok to commit piracy? And since when am I arguing for piracy either? :S I can understand your frustration because I create music so you could say I'm an artiste as well, but you need to calm down if I may say so. I get the feeling this is a rather touchy topic for you which, again, I can completely understand but I sincerely do not appreciate you coming at me with accusations of making fallacies which clearly are nowhere near the intentions of my post. My comments are just observations, if you will.

Anyway, if you didn't realize, I am actually on your side, just that I am looking at it realistically as I stated:

Retorth Wrote:It's definitely good to support the cause for helping musicians and the likes, but I just think this is an issue that isn't going to ever end.

In other words, I just feel that its so rampant that its extremely hard, borderlining on impossible to solve. I could be wrong however. A full proof solution may well be at hand.

Piracy is all good, but if you make money from it pay for it!

Simple as that imo.

(October 9, 2009 at 2:06 pm)Retorth Wrote: When did I say it was ok to commit piracy? And since when am I arguing for piracy either? :S I can understand your frustration because I create music so you could say I'm an artiste as well, but you need to calm down if I may say so. I get the feeling this is a rather touchy topic for you which, again, I can completely understand but I sincerely do not appreciate you coming at me with accusations of making fallacies which clearly are nowhere near the intentions of my post. My comments are just observations, if you will.

Anyway, if you didn't realize, I am actually on your side, just that I am looking at it realistically as I stated:

Retorth Wrote:It's definitely good to support the cause for helping musicians and the likes, but I just think this is an issue that isn't going to ever end.

In other words, I just feel that its so rampant that its extremely hard, borderlining on impossible to solve. I could be wrong however. A full proof solution may well be at hand.

I understand. I'm feeling very calm. -_^ I just got the impression that you were stating piracy was okay because it's never going to go away, since the question from the original post was what you thought about piracy.

Yes, piracy will never go away. It's still stealing, and just because the problem seems monumental doesn't mean you can't tackle it and the companies are not justified in trying to combat it.

(October 9, 2009 at 2:06 pm)Retorth Wrote: I just feel that its so rampant that its extremely hard, borderlining on impossible to solve. I could be wrong however. A full proof solution may well be at hand.

I agree. Even if extremely powerful protection software is designed, if it can be used on someone's computer it can be pirated. Luckily though, for companies, a lot of people (such as you, Eilonnwy), have a strong moral conviction regarding piracy.

I'm not going to say piracy is right or that it isn't stealing, but clinging to those two guidelines, while very responsible and logical, doesn't have a lot of practical strength. Companies will continue to make massive profits because very focused moral people realize that stealing is stealing. I personally, have only ever downloaded material from large corporations or artists. I think for developing music artists and such, they really do need the money, and at that point your actions do have a practical impact.

(October 9, 2009 at 5:25 pm)Nick A. Wrote:

(October 9, 2009 at 2:06 pm)Retorth Wrote: I just feel that its so rampant that its extremely hard, borderlining on impossible to solve. I could be wrong however. A full proof solution may well be at hand.

I agree. Even if extremely powerful protection software is designed, if it can be used on someone's computer it can be pirated. Luckily though, for companies, a lot of people (such as you, Eilonnwy), have a strong moral conviction regarding piracy.

I'm not going to say piracy is right or that it isn't stealing, but clinging to those two guidelines, while very responsible and logical, doesn't have a lot of practical strength. Companies will continue to make massive profits because very focused moral people realize that stealing is stealing. I personally, have only ever downloaded material from large corporations or artists. I think for developing music artists and such, they really do need the money, and at that point your actions do have a practical impact.

You argument is ridiculous, it's as if your saying as long as other people buy it, it's okay for you to steal. I know that's not specifically what you said, but that's the impression I get.

Practical strength? I don't purchase things just because I don't want to get caught stealing. I want to actually support artists or companies I like. If everyone decided it was okay to steal because it doesn't matter, then it will eventually destroy that music industry. If that's what you want, fine. Money talks, don't buy what you're not willing to pay for. The piracy is already impacting the music industry. I work for my friend who is trying to "make it" and I see first hand how they suffer from this problem.

I'll never forget, I was working a table and a sudden downpour happened. I was under a tent but water was rushing to this one spot and my friend's guitar was there, so I was focused on getting that out of the water. I turned back and noticed a CD was gone. Would you say it's okay for whoever took that CD to do it? Probably not, so why is it any different for music you can download?

(October 9, 2009 at 6:23 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: You argument is ridiculous, it's as if your saying as long as other people buy it, it's okay for you to steal. I know that's not specifically what you said, but that's the impression I get.

When did I ever say it was "okay" ? I already clearly admitted it was wrong, but that it's to the consumer's practical advantage to indulge in a few things here and there, and that in most cases, the result of such 'few things here and there' is marginal.

It may not make much of a difference when I alone choose to help the industries and protect artists, by not being a pirate: But it's a matter of principle for me, that's what matters to me. And if more people had that attitude, then that would have more practical impact. So I guess it's to set an example, but even if, hypothetically speaking...[b]no one[/i] followed it, and if I was the only one (once more...: speaking hypothetically of course...) - Then I'd still not do it, because as I said: It's basically just a matter of principle for me. And if any practical good comes from the principle, I consider that a by-product.

EvF

(October 8, 2009 at 7:59 pm)Nick A. Wrote: So, what do you think?
~Nick

You were spot on Eilonnwy.

Quote:I think the laws, in general, are reasonable. Sorry they don't let you have anything you want for free, but if you were on the other side of the coin you would appreciate how these laws protect artists of all types. People have the right to produce something and sell it, this how people make a living regardless of whether they are rich, or merely get by month to month.

Piracy as in illegal downloading off internet sites is wrong. But most people who want music or movies or anything else will weasle their way to get stuff for free, it's just plain wrong.

I am a linced cosmetologist or a beauty professional. Say for instance that I had a professsional use only product, if I sell that product to say Rite Aid I would be stealing the product, and making no profit. Their is also a professional purchase agreement that I have to abid to for all the beauty products that I buy.

Eilonnwy had sum it up very nicely:

Quote:Stealing comes in when you try to sell those recordings, or you take something that has been purchased, such as a DVD and CD, you rip it and give it away or sell it. This constitutes as stealing, because instead of purchasing the material people buy it from someone else or do not buy it at all leading to loss of profits.

It is a good things that their are laws that protect everything from getting stolen.

Amp