(December 10, 2012 at 10:24 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Atheists making fun of prayer is fairly common.

What I dont get is anger and vitriol about whether or not someone prays. Thats emotional atheism. Thats IRRATIONAL atheism!

Here, let me wave a quartz crystal up in the air and light an incense stick.

Does that enrage clear *cough* thinking atheists too? Is it an grossly offensive insult to do that?

There is no evidence that prayer works. To cut a long story short, prayer doesn't work.

Of course we are going to make fun of people that think it does work, because they are deluded.

I'd much rather physically help a good cause than pray for a good outcome.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:29 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...There is no evidence that prayer works.

Yes there is. What you mean is you havent seen or heard any evidence you find persuasive.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:29 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...To cut a long story short, prayer doesn't work.

And yet strangely people still pray and get what they regard as satisfactory results.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:29 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...Of course we are going to make fun of people that think it does work, because they are deluded.

Making fun of ppl isnt nice - especially when its solely because YOU THINK prayer doesnt work.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:29 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...I'd much rather physically help a good cause than pray for a good outcome.

Me too. See? We have something in common.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:45 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Me too. See? We have something in common.

But according to you prayer works? It doesn't, but just pretending it does for the sake of debate, why would you physically help rather than pray? This makes fuck all sense if prayer REALLY DOES WORK? Fuck all sense.

Prayers work as a placebo maybe, so don't tell them!

It's the whiff of superiority, the subtle stink of arrogance that gets me. Two images creep to mind when some one says "I'll pray for you"; one is that feeling (I know I said images - poetic license) that you get when you can smell dog shit, but you can't find it, and the other is a the eyeroll given by a particularly dim teenager when told by an older person that the internet isn't always right.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:55 pm)Dee Dee Ramone Wrote: Prayers work as a placebo maybe, so don't tell them!

There is no evidence of prayers even having a placebo effect, as far as I'm aware.

I love it when certain sportsmen pray for a good result for themselves and feel justified when it happens - like god really gives a fuck. Aaaargh!

(December 10, 2012 at 10:55 pm)Dee Dee Ramone Wrote: Prayers work as a placebo maybe, so don't tell them!

I think the issue is not that they don't know it's bullshit. It's when they are reminded that gets 'em all worked up.

You could be very well right. The study of the effects of prayer never have been my priority.

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(December 10, 2012 at 11:05 pm)Voltron Wrote:

(December 10, 2012 at 10:55 pm)Dee Dee Ramone Wrote: Prayers work as a placebo maybe, so don't tell them!

I think the issue is not that they don't know it's bullshit. It's when they are reminded that gets 'em all worked up.

And then they start praying for you, what a fucking waste of time.

Lion IRC Wrote:What I dont get is anger and vitriol about whether or not someone prays. Thats emotional atheism. Thats IRRATIONAL atheism!

It's not the act of prayer that gets me. Hell, you may as well be doing a rain dance as far as I'm concerned. No, what pisses me of is the condescending implications made by the statement "I'll pray for you," as if I'm such an atrocious human being that I need you to speak on my behalf to your god. That is not irrational.

By all means, pray as much as you want as long as you're not using to gain a false sense of superiority nor using it as a substitute for real help.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:49 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: ...I'd much rather physically help a good cause than pray for a good outcome.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:45 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Me too. See? We have something in common.

(December 10, 2012 at 10:49 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: But according to you prayer works? It doesn't, but just pretending it does for the sake of debate, why would you physically help rather than pray? This makes fuck all sense if prayer REALLY DOES WORK? Fuck all sense.

The operative words here are ;
...I'd much rather physically help a good cause than pray for a good outcome.

I didnt say I'd rather NOT pray at all.
I didnt say I can physically do anything/everything and dont need help.

I agree, if we were self-sufficient and didnt need any help then prayer would be redundant.

But last time I checked, we need help. We dont know everything. We make mistakes. There are things beyond our control. Many hands make light work. The Lord helps those who help themself..(wait! is that even in the bible?)

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Theologically, Christianity holds that theres something ELSE about help from God which goes beyond us asking for His help. (Prayer)

The doctrine holds that help from God is most noticeable when it is withdrawn.

Then we get our selfish and stupid wish granted for Him to leave us alone.