(December 30, 2012 at 10:07 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: ...

Yes, I understood that.

And my complaint is that, if I were an atheist/godless person doing whatever law-of-the-jungle stuff I was able to get away with, I would hate being called a monster by some mere primate or any other species.

I would tell them to step off.

And I would ask them by what sanctimonious right do they dare presume to moralise @me

And I would tell them that blind evolution had favored me with bigger fists and sharper teeth and more testosterone and to mind their own business or else they are gonna be next!

I find it so funny how many Christians think that if you believe morality is subjective, then you must never condemn anyone's actions and you must let everyone do what they want.

Oh, you can condemn and moralize against other ppl's actions as much as you want.

But if they dont think the bible your rationale is sufficient justification....

(December 30, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Oh, you can condemn and moralize against other ppl's actions as much as you want.

But if they dont think the bible your rationale is sufficient justification....
...

And? So what?

(December 30, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

Funny that. I was feeling the exact same way.

(December 30, 2012 at 10:30 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 30, 2012 at 10:28 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: Oh, you can condemn and moralize against other ppl's actions as much as you want.

But if they dont think the bible your rationale is sufficient justification....
...

And? So what?

You need an agreed objective morality otherwise the only thing thats going to stop the alpha male gorilla raping which ever female he wants will be another alpha male gorilla - a BIGGER/STRONGER one

(December 30, 2012 at 10:07 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: And my complaint is that, if I were an atheist/godless person doing whatever law-of-the-jungle stuff I was able to get away with, I would hate being called a monster by some mere primate or any other species.

I would tell them to step off.

And I would ask them by what sanctimonious right do they dare presume to moralise @me

And I would tell them that blind evolution had favored me with bigger fists and sharper teeth and more testosterone and to mind their own business or else they are gonna be next!

Lion that's brilliant. Not only is it good for a giggle - it's also absolutely true. As if you can't tell me that secular states don't rape and pillage their people; Americans have quite literally cannibalized themselves (they started by enslaving blacks, then they spent their descendant's future money, then their banks gave liar's loans and caused the 2008 GFC, then all the most corrupt got bailed out by the US Government, they torture their POW's in Guantanamo Bay in direct contradiction the UN treaty against torture which is as scandalous, immoral and unethical as breaching the Geneva convention, etc) - and that's just the USA one of the countries we believe to be more "moderate" more "peaceful".

The truth hurts, and their defence that morality comes from our species and not out God is counterintuitive anyway, not to mention an arbitrary, abstract construct which applies unevenly and appeals to personal opinion on matters of right and wrong over the wisdom/guidance of an authoritative source on the matter.

(December 30, 2012 at 10:34 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(December 30, 2012 at 10:30 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: And? So what?

You need an agreed objective morality otherwise the only thing thats going to stop the alpha male gorilla raping which ever female he wants will be another alpha male gorilla - a BIGGER/STRONGER one

That's the fallacy of appeal to consequences. That says nothing about whether or not morality is subjective.

(December 31, 2012 at 12:54 am)Aractus Wrote: Lion that's brilliant. Not only is it good for a giggle - it's also absolutely true. As if you can't tell me that secular states don't rape and pillage their people; Americans have quite literally cannibalized themselves (they started by enslaving blacks, then they spent their descendant's future money, then their banks gave liar's loans and caused the 2008 GFC, then all the most corrupt got bailed out by the US Government, they torture their POW's in Guantanamo Bay in direct contradiction the UN treaty against torture which is as scandalous, immoral and unethical as breaching the Geneva convention, etc) - and that's just the USA one of the countries we believe to be more "moderate" more "peaceful".

The truth hurts, and their defence that morality comes from our species and not out God is counterintuitive anyway, not to mention an arbitrary, abstract construct which applies unevenly and appeals to personal opinion on matters of right and wrong over the wisdom/guidance of an authoritative source on the matter.

Brilliant? It's one of the oldest arguments, and in my opinion one of the scariest. The implication behind it is that the bible or god is the only thing keeping Christians back from being murdering raping lunatics. I am worried about anyone who makes the argument from morality. It says to me that they have a desire to kill people and don't because they fear God's wrath. It means they are a dangerous human being who's own moral scale I question.

Not only that, but the argument that morality comes from God is hopelessly flawed. If you have any grasp of history, you can see that morality clearly shifts from place to place and era to era. It's not an inborn thing at all. In much of the ancient world, even murder wasn't considered wrong unless it was someone of the same or greater social class. Is that the type of inborn God-given morality you are talking about? As recently as the 19th century we took children to see battles and public executions and nobody blinked at the wrongness of it. Is that our inborn morality? Morals are clearly cultural, the only way I think someone could conclude otherwise is if they have no grasp of history at all.

(December 26, 2012 at 12:46 am)craig Wrote: i fucking hate religion, it is the most evil thing that mankind has embraced in 5 billion years of Earth existence. Religion has done nothing but pollute our world. Atheists are the most tolerant people for gays and women that i have ever met. Religion is both sexist and homophobic, just for a start. Wars have not been started in atheist causes, unlike religion.

Merry Me!

(December 30, 2012 at 10:20 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(December 30, 2012 at 10:07 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: ...

Yes, I understood that.

And my complaint is that, if I were an atheist/godless person doing whatever law-of-the-jungle stuff I was able to get away with, I would hate being called a monster by some mere primate or any other species.

I would tell them to step off.

And I would ask them by what sanctimonious right do they dare presume to moralise @me

And I would tell them that blind evolution had favored me with bigger fists and sharper teeth and more testosterone and to mind their own business or else they are gonna be next!

I find it so funny how many Christians think that if you believe morality is subjective, then you must never condemn anyone's actions and you must let everyone do what they want.

That is because without a comic book cosmic "screw"(old term for prison guard) you wouldn't be able to self regulate.

It never occurs to the believer the morality of "doing the right thing even when no one is watching".