I was thinking, why can't the collective suffering of humanity be an atonement to our sins in the next world?

Because we don't get to chain something to a post and beat it Mystic. Takes all the fun out of the game.

Drich, I have a different Christology and so my answer may interest you. Jesus’ whole life was a process of atonement, from birth to death. He consistently sacrificed the will of his earthly flesh to the will of the Father. The Gospel record of this begins with His temptation in the wilderness. There He set aside the desires of His natural humanity. At crucifixion He set aside His physical manifestation. His victory consisted of His ability to love right up until the end. Because of He alone triumphed over the flesh, He can reassume flesh at will in a glorified state.

(March 30, 2013 at 2:31 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Drich, I have a different Christology and so my answer may interest you. Jesus’ whole life was a process of atonement, from birth to death. He consistently sacrificed the will of his earthly flesh to the will of the Father. The Gospel record of this begins with His temptation in the wilderness. There He set aside the desires of His natural humanity. At crucifixion He set aside His physical manifestation. His victory consisted of His ability to love right up until the end. Because of He alone triumphed over the flesh, He can reassume flesh at will in a glorified state.

Was there ever any chance of sin on part of Jesus? Was it possible for Jesus to have sinned and gave into temptations?

(March 30, 2013 at 2:31 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Drich, I have a different Christology and so my answer may interest you. Jesus’ whole life was a process of atonement, from birth to death. He consistently sacrificed the will of his earthly flesh to the will of the Father. The Gospel record of this begins with His temptation in the wilderness. There He set aside the desires of His natural humanity. At crucifixion He set aside His physical manifestation. His victory consisted of His ability to love right up until the end. Because of He alone triumphed over the flesh, He can reassume flesh at will in a glorified state.

My Question is: Is this 'glorified state' still God?

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(March 30, 2013 at 1:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I was thinking, why can't the collective suffering of humanity be an atonement to our sins in the next world?

Because that suffering is the product of sin. How can the Product of something unacceptable be may acceptable?

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(March 30, 2013 at 2:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Was there ever any chance of sin on part of Jesus? Was it possible for Jesus to have sinned and gave into temptations?

Yes. Christ spent 40 days in the desert fasting and being tempted by Satan himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Christ

Forgive me for interrupting your godgasm Drich, but at what point would your god not have realized the fatuous nature of satan's promises and temptations in explicit detail? I mean, it would be pretty difficult to tempt me into "sin" by offering me a glass box with nothing in it - promising that it was filled with 100$ bills....Or, perhaps more mystifying, by offering me something (like the world) - which I, as god, already had dominion over.....

That's just me, a lowly human worm.. monkeyman with no soul....etc etc etc. I assume your god would have slightly steelier ones than I?

(March 30, 2013 at 2:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Forgive me for interrupting your godgasm Drich, but at what point would your god not have realized the fatuous nature of satan's promises and temptations in explicit detail? I mean, it would be pretty difficult to tempt me into "sin" by offering me a glass box with nothing in it - promising that it was filled with 100$ bills....Or, perhaps more mystifying, by offering me something (like the world) - which I, as god, already had dominion over.....

That is how Jesus was able to resist the temptation--with perspective. Satan offered him kingdoms for his earthly life, but Jesus understood the grand plan: after he died and resurrected, he would be back in heaven with dominion over all. Christians face a remarkably similar temptation. We can seek the material pleasures of this world or we can place our treasure in heaven, where "moths and vermin [do not] destroy, and where thieves [do not] break in and steal" (Matt 6:19).

Would you, like Drich, be of the opinion that satan could have successfully tempted a being that possessed such perspective?

I think "remarkably similar" is a gross exaggeration of myth as it relates to man, but opinions are like assholes, so meh.

Perhaps my objection has drifted past you somehow. If I had such perspective as is claimed by -some- christians for their godman - it would be impossible to tempt me with such nonsense. That kind of makes the temptation thing moot. If the godman -could- have been tempted by this...well, we would expect a godman to be a little better equipped than I to resist such nonsense, wouldn't we?

(March 30, 2013 at 2:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Forgive me for interrupting your godgasm Drich, but at what point would your god not have realized the fatuous nature of satan's promises and temptations in explicit detail? I mean, it would be pretty difficult to tempt me into "sin" by offering me a glass box with nothing in it - promising that it was filled with 100$ bills....Or, perhaps more mystifying, by offering me something (like the world) - which I, as god, already had dominion over.....

That's just me, a lowly human worm.. monkeyman with no soul....etc etc etc. I assume your god would have slightly steelier ones than I?

That's just it. God (at that time) did not have control of the world. If you remember after Creation He handed the reigns of this world over to Adam to be it's care taker. Then Adam handed the reigns over to satan when he ate of the forbidden fruit. Or rather Adam handed Humanity over to sin, and as Satan is the Father of all sin. Meaning Humanity (the rulers of this world) became the properity of Sin, and sin belongs to satan. (Satan manipulates man through his bondage to sin, making Satan the ruler of this world.) *Side note this world is the cloest thing to a satan run Hell/Satan run world (where the devil is in command) Real Hell is not satan's realm as in other religions. Hell is where Satan is punished forever. Hell was stoked and primed for him to be punished forever not us.

Anyways, The offer Satan made to Christ was a way to reobtain dominion over this realm, this world without Having to die on the cross. God's way Had Christ beaten and scouraged, to pay for sin (And maybe it cost Him His Deity as well) Satan offered to simply give everything back without having to give anything up.
All He asked was that Jesus turn His back on God and worship Him. (Which if you think about it is kinda what God did to Jesus, In that He turned His back on Christ while He died on the cross.)

Tell me that is not a temptation. I am a goal oreanted person, and if the Goal is X and we have a very difficult plan to obtain X at Great or even catastrophic loss, and someone else offers a plan to ensure the accomplishment of X with little to no loss.. I would be in.

I Thank Christ it was Him there and not me. This world would look very different otherwise.

(March 30, 2013 at 3:18 pm)Drich Wrote: I Thank Christ it was Him there and not me. This world would look very different otherwise.

Actually, it would still be the same. Considering that he is a fictional character, after all.