(April 30, 2013 at 9:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think you have to look at the whole system. Is the system good and for the best? This is the question when it comes to ultimate benevolence.

This is brilliant, or maybe I'm just an idiot. I never thought of it from that angle. In proposition II I set up a bi-conditional relationship between "An omnibenevolent beings will X" and "X is good."

While it is necessarily true that if omnibenevolent being wills X, then X is good. I can't think of a good reason that X is good implies that God wills X. In fact, the more I think about it, the more absurd it seems. An omnipotent being need not will every good thing. After all, is it not unreasonable for there to exist multiple good options in a given scenario. Furthermore, under this assumption no one but the omnibenevolent being could do good!

That being said, I think an important aspect of omnibenevolence is a certain acting for the "greater good," but this "greater good" is not equivalent to all good; rather, it is a subset of good.

This completely demises my paradox. Thank you for your insight!

(April 30, 2013 at 10:07 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Anything which requires humans to do anything or be part of is not.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but I will try to answer the objection anyway. The reason I used the atypical wording of means and ends rather than actions is to avoid trivial conflicts within the definition of omnipotence (Can an omnipotent being do X such that he can not do Y? If so, then he can not do Y; therefore he is not omnipotent. If not, then he can not do X; therefore, he is not omnipotent.).

This argument fails to note that there are some things that by their very nature can not be done. If omnipotence is to include these actions, then it is not even self-consistent; however, if the domain the word could somehow be limited to only that which is doable, the definition would hold water. Now, it is obviously impossible to enumerate a set of every doable thing; however, we can prove that a given thing is in the set by demonstrating that it can be done. For instance, I can lie. Therefore, lieing must be able to be done.

Alas, this restriction still fails to take into account the subject's relationship to an action that he or she may be preforming. For example, I am very good at not being God. To solve this problem we need only insist that actions be predicated. An easy way to do this is to separate ends from means.

An end refers to a goal state (or set of potential states depending on the context) of a suitably restricted portion of the universe. In my paradox I used the idea of stopping a gun. Whereas a means refers to a process of achieving the ends (smiting the shooter, stopping the bullet, etc). This separation ensures that a beings status does not lead to a trivial contradiction.

Can God make a box into which he can not look? No, but no one can make a box into which God can not look.

Finally, you idea of "requiring humans" only stipulates the means not the ends. I can think of no end that requires humans.

(April 30, 2013 at 10:07 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Where did you find anything which might support this assumption?

To be frank, the dictionary. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the purpose of this statement is not to restrict an omnibenevolent being; rather it is to concisely define the nature of good. If the omnibenevolent being doesn't do good, who does?

As I mentioned in another post, the flaw in my reasoning stems from the idea that God does every good thing. I apologize for my inaccuracy on that point.

(April 30, 2013 at 10:07 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Argumentation is worthless. Show me the physical evidence.

The other day on the news I saw a story of a man who shot another man. There was another guy who could have stopped him, but didn't and was charged as an accessory to murder.

In this case, A is the guy who shot the other guy, B is the guy who could have stopped him, E is the killing of the man who was shot. E' is the stopping of the killing of the man who was shot, and G is still any simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent being.

(May 1, 2013 at 1:09 pm)ThomM Wrote:

(April 30, 2013 at 11:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: [quote='goodnews' pid='438235' dateline='1367251937']
God is responsible but he is not to blame,

Since the god is not proven to actually exist - it cannot be blamed for anything - nor is it proven to be responsible for anything

And since most of the bible is actually FICTIONAL material - then we have NO reason to give a god CREDIT for anything either.

However - even if YOU consider the bible to be a allegory or a metaphor - the problem is that it does NOT support the claim of the benevolent god that xtians like to claim. The story of the Passover - even as an allegory - is a story of a great MURDER of people nor responsible for the actions of the pharaoh. The stories of the great flood - and Sodom and Gomorrah - are examples of the murder of the 20& of a population that would be too young to actually be responsible for their own actions - ie - babies and young children before the age of reason and responsibility.

But the biggest problem that even modified Monotheistic religions have - when they claim ONE creator - is that if the creator created everything - it had to create evil. No other being has that ability - ie - the ability to create. And worse - since the Xtian god is also claimed to be the ULTIMATE power extant - with nothing being impossible for it - then WHY claim a war against evil - because evil could NOT exist unless the god both created it and allows it to exist.

IF the god is ALL GOOD - why does it not just eliminate evil
And the correct answer is that the god is a creation of HUMANS - whose explanations of their creations are too convoluted and contradictory to actually be possible. So - the idea that a god exists is a JOKE.

Why can't people bring new arguments, we've been over this stuff so many times it's boring, Christians have refuted this junk.

We keep bringing them up precisely because no Christian ever has refuted them (after all, if you are incapable of proving the existence of your god, how can you possibly refute any criticism of that god?). You have merely invented rationalizations which satisfy only yourselves.

(May 1, 2013 at 3:25 am)goodnews Wrote: Romans 2:4 is quiet clear it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance

Yes, God's Grace is constantly flowing towards us before we are even aware of the need. But we must turn to it, accept it and, yes, it will lead to repentance.

(Is it just me or did someone quoth the raven nevermore?)

(May 1, 2013 at 9:34 am)goodnews Wrote: Why , why, why, why, why, why, why, why,why, and why ? Well the answer is simply, because you have not a clue to what the Gospel of Good News is, and the reason for that is because you do not believe the Words of God, you say "my view" is of a fatalist ? This statement of yours is proof that you do not believe the scriptures in Ephesians and thousands of others, as for the rest of your questions, it is evident you follow the doctrins of men and preach heresy and blasphemy, I could argue your false doctrins better than you could because I know how, when and why they came to be . Here is some wisdom few know ! / Isaiah 52:7&10 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that publish good tidings, that publish peace; that bring good tidings of good, that publish salvation; ...... The lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God . / So here you have it in a nut shell THE GOSPEL which means GOOD TIDINGS . You preach EVIL TIDINGS of despicable torture and infinite terror and damnation without mercy. So I ask you this which god do you worship, because its not The God found in the Bible ????

I'm not sure whats going on with you, are you a christian, are you an atheist claiming to be a christian, just what is your deal. If you're a christian I'm not going to argue scripture with you unless you betray them, and as Christ said, do not worry about the things man says to you because it is Me they are directing their hatred toward. As for the verses from Isaiah, God is foretelling the coming of Christ not just to Israel, but for the whole world.

Can you not see that, you only believe Isaiah 52:10 in part, why do you leave out that ... all the ends of the earth {thats everyone} shall see the salvation of our God . God does not need salvation, Gods salvation is what he has given us { thats everyone, past and present, from all nations, from the ends of the entire whole world } I know why you left that part out, it is because you dont believe the scriptures eg: 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. + 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. You and "christiandom" falsely and un-Scriptually preach, that The God of Love and Mercy { who is still creating } His children in His own image, will send the majority of them to a place of undescribable torture for ever and ever, because the sacrifice His Son our Lord Jesus failed to save them ?? Therefore you portray God as endlessly wicked and a failure ??? I do not refer to myself as a "Christian" for these very reasons . ps: it is the man made despicable doctrin of "hell" that is full of hatred towards men, WHICH YOU OPENLY REJOICE IN ???

(May 3, 2013 at 4:36 am)goodnews Wrote: Can you not see that, you only believe Isaiah 52:10 in part, why do you leave out that ... all the ends of the earth {thats everyone} shall see the salvation of our God . God does not need salvation, Gods salvation is what he has given us { thats everyone, past and present, from all nations, from the ends of the entire whole world } I know why you left that part out, it is because you dont believe the scriptures eg: 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. + 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. You and "christiandom" falsely and un-Scriptually preach, that The God of Love and Mercy { who is still creating } His children in His own image, will send the majority of them to a place of undescribable torture for ever and ever, because the sacrifice His Son our Lord Jesus failed to save them ?? Therefore you portray God as endlessly wicked and a failure ??? I do not refer to myself as a "Christian" for these very reasons . ps: it is the man made despicable doctrin of "hell" that is full of hatred towards men, WHICH YOU OPENLY REJOICE IN ???

You just keep repeating the same thing and the same verses and yes I did say all men would see God's salvation, but that doesn't mean all will accept it. You believe Stalin is going to heaven?

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. This verse should you choose to believe it, tells us men like Stalin are not of their own makeing / 11 Peter 3:9 ....., not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. / Romans 2:4 ....; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance / Isaiah 46:10 ........, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Only when you start to fully belive in the sovereignty of God, will you trully understand the scriptures, and Gods plan of salvation is three fold, { first Christ then the first fruits then the harvest } why do you think their are many called but few chosen, { its the chosen who will reign with Christ and have access to His kingdom } why did Jesus only speek in parables, with spiritual words, which no one understood,{ not even His deciples} , only when Jesus had died and rose, and returned to His Father, was He able to decend upon His deciples as the comforter, only then where they converted, and haveing remembered His teachings, understood all the parables are all the same, and the Gospel of Good News is the salvation of all men. God is the lake of fire, and He will judge all men in righteousness, He will purge us of all evil. God will not and can not fail His creation because the PROPITIATION OF HIS SON DID NOT FAIL, "christiandom" has bean deceived by mans indoctrinated heresys and blasphemous lies and THE GOSPEL OF GOOD NEWS is all but forgotten.

(May 1, 2013 at 5:04 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 1, 2013 at 1:09 pm)ThomM Wrote: Since the god is not proven to actually exist - it cannot be blamed for anything - nor is it proven to be responsible for anything

And since most of the bible is actually FICTIONAL material - then we have NO reason to give a god CREDIT for anything either.

However - even if YOU consider the bible to be a allegory or a metaphor - the problem is that it does NOT support the claim of the benevolent god that xtians like to claim. The story of the Passover - even as an allegory - is a story of a great MURDER of people nor responsible for the actions of the pharaoh. The stories of the great flood - and Sodom and Gomorrah - are examples of the murder of the 20& of a population that would be too young to actually be responsible for their own actions - ie - babies and young children before the age of reason and responsibility.

But the biggest problem that even modified Monotheistic religions have - when they claim ONE creator - is that if the creator created everything - it had to create evil. No other being has that ability - ie - the ability to create. And worse - since the Xtian god is also claimed to be the ULTIMATE power extant - with nothing being impossible for it - then WHY claim a war against evil - because evil could NOT exist unless the god both created it and allows it to exist.

IF the god is ALL GOOD - why does it not just eliminate evil
And the correct answer is that the god is a creation of HUMANS - whose explanations of their creations are too convoluted and contradictory to actually be possible. So - the idea that a god exists is a JOKE.

Why can't people bring new arguments, we've been over this stuff so many times it's boring, Christians have refuted this junk.

Sorry - but XTIANS have not refuted this

PROOF that you have not - the majority of the people in the world accept that your religion is NOT TRUE.

IF you had already proven your god - all would have to believe it.

WE do not need to bring new arguments to a subject where YOU never support your initial presumption.

---

(May 1, 2013 at 5:21 pm)Ryantology Wrote: We keep bringing them up precisely because no Christian ever has refuted them (after all, if you are incapable of proving the existence of your god, how can you possibly refute any criticism of that god?). You have merely invented rationalizations which satisfy only yourselves.

Indeed - ANd in fact - if YOU ask the majority of the "THeists" in the world - they AGREE that the Xtuian god is NOT real to begin with.

Now - Let us look at why we can reject the existence of a god

1 - Discoveries of History through Archeology and Geology - have shown that most of the early claims of religions are simply NOT even close to being true.
A - THe earth is Far older than the 6000 years of the timeline of the Old Testament - it is Billions of years old.

B - THere NEVER was a time when ALL of the living things of the earth existed at the same time. And it is clear that LOTS of animals existed millions of years BEFORE humans EVOLVED. IE - the story of creation is NONSENSE and proven so.

C: The FAIRY TALES of genesis - creation - the flood - the passover - moses - the parting of the red sea - the battle of Jericho - are now proven not have happened. Much of the later claims do not survive scrutiny -

D:AND there is NO evidence at all that the christ even lived on earth based on the records of his supposed time - which was the GOLDEN AGE OF ROME. WHile xtians cling to their claim that it was largely an undocumented time - we have MILLIONS of documents from that time - even several years of the results of the annual Roman Turtle races at the Saturnalia. Apparently the turtles are better at getting press than a supreme being is!


2 - Science not only can show - but provide Testable and verifiable proof of a number of things that directly reject the claims of religion


A: WE already KNOW that life EVOLVED on earth - DNA study has PROVEN that to be the case - and there is NO question that Natural Selection - ie survival of the fittest - which was DARWIN's claim about evolution HAS happened and continues to happen. THis is already so well documented that even the Catholic Church has had to admit it is.

B: THe discovery of a very basic particle of matter establishes the fact that the Universe developed over Billions of years - and that the current Universe is a development of acceleration from a single point is No longer just theory - but supportable in far more ways.

C: OF course - we know that the earth is not a flat "circle" on which there is a high place from which you can see all of its kingdoms - we know the earth is NOT the center of the Universe - we KNow that the earth is not the center of the solar system - we KNow the earth revolves on its axis as well as orbiting the sun - we KNOW that the moon does not PRODUCE light - we KNOW that humans cannot safely eat ALL SEED bearing plants. Science no longer has to even address these - they are established fact.


So - we have reduced "creation" down to a single thing - the ability to set the process of evolution of the Universe into motion

While we do not know the Initial basis - we can say that there is a natural explanation for the rest - supported by far more proof than the existence of spooks.

However - we can ALSO say that we do not need a "god" as an explanation. IF a higher power did it - all it would need is THAT single power - and does not even need to continue to exist. THe REST of the story of religion has NO reasonable basis - nor is it at all necessary.

And I have not even gotten into the reasons why the basic stories of religion do not make sense as well. WHy is it that an ULTIMATE POWER - that is supposed to be the ULTIMATE GOOD of all - allows evil to exist - but if the god is the Ultimate power - there is NO BATTLE between good (with god on that side) and evil - it is NOT even a contest. THE suggestion is stupid.

IF we are made in the image and likeness of god - why is it we CAN be seen - and a god has NEVER been seen - OOPS - LOTS of gods have been seen - and we have PROOF they existed - we have their mummies. BUT - they were humans - not "gods".

IF all humans are supposedly created equal - explain a baby born with AIDS - or without a limb - or without intelligence - or with a number of equally distressing maladies. If we are only responsible for our own actions - and not for the sins of our fathers (AS it says in the bible) = ONLY "EVE" needed to be saved. God punishing the rest of mankind is simply not logical nor fair or just.


IT is EDUCATION that has shown religion to be nonsense - and
Every YEAR we find more and more scientifically - that refutes religions claims.

WE have millions of proofs that contradict religions statements. - ANd not a single piece of testable and verifiable proof that a god exist - much less that it is the Xtian god.

OUR position is supported - the Xtians IS NOT