(May 22, 2013 at 4:45 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: In your analogy, can Dr. Manhattan raise the woman and her child into eternal bliss?

What has that to do with anything? The question is why did Dr. Manhattan not stop something which he could have done effortlessly; he even knew that the Comedian was gonna shot her due to his clairvoyance powers.

I don't remember what Dr. Manhattan's response was, but if it was anything in the order of interfering with the Comedian's Free Will or the like, I'd call that a dodge and Red Herring.

(May 22, 2013 at 3:04 pm)Praetorian Wrote: My whole point is, you shouldn't have to go in these circles in the first place. If there really was an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing god, these problems would never exist. None of the arguments I've made would apply to a god who has human limitations, which Yahweh certainly seems to, but that's certainly not how he's portrayed and I doubt that's what you believe.

There you go again, contradicting yourself in a single paragraph. If the god of the Bible is not portrayed as " all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing," then why do you argue as if he is portrayed that way?

Posting from a phone sure is annoying when there are multiple things to respond to.

First, GC, why does God nees to be respected by his creation? That's a non-sequitur, but it still doesn't make any sense. God doesn't need our approval, and if he wanted it, he still didn't need to sit idly by and let the world unfold like it did. I'd contest that the world we see around us is far more likely to occur if there is no god, rather than a loving one who needs to earn the respect of the things he created by doing nothing to help them.

(May 22, 2013 at 4:45 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: In your analogy, can Dr. Manhattan raise the woman and her child into eternal bliss?

Sure, but only if she believes he can .

Dr. Manhattan is sort of the god character in that story, but the point is, withholding action when you could have prevented something makes you complicit with it. He didn't have to kill the comedian either, he could turn the bullets into vapor, which the comedian tells him.

This is unreasonable when you are powerless to do anything about a situation, but if you're all-powerful, you can do all the things to stop it.

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(May 22, 2013 at 7:07 pm)John V Wrote:

(May 22, 2013 at 3:04 pm)Praetorian Wrote: My whole point is, you shouldn't have to go in these circles in the first place. If there really was an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing god, these problems would never exist. None of the arguments I've made would apply to a god who has human limitations, which Yahweh certainly seems to, but that's certainly not how he's portrayed and I doubt that's what you believe.

There you go again, contradicting yourself in a single paragraph. If the god of the Bible is not portrayed as " all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing," then why do you argue as if he is portrayed that way?

Uh...that's my whole argument. If he is those things, then he must do certain things. If you don't believe he is those things, then he is limited. AFAIK, no Christian doctrine ever said God was limited. Except the whole chariots of iron bit.

So, here's how it goes:

No reply from the doc.... I guess.

(May 22, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's limitation to interfere was and is free will, which He imposed on Himself.

Yet, he interferes regularly, in the Bible.

Quote:He couldn't stop Lucifer because he would have called God an unloving tyrant, a being only able to keep His creation through power and everyone would turn from Him if it wasn't for His controlling power that allowed no one to make decisions for themselves.

Yet, this is still precisely what he is, because God gave out free will but then set up a huge list of laws designed to punish almost every single potential use anyone could have for free will.

Quote:Unhappy is creation, no matter what God would do

Either another limit to God's abilities or an example of his malice, that he can't or won't make a universe in which people of free will would find no faults and never suffer misery.

Quote:So why not let the evil Lucifer brought into creation run it's coarse and then be dealt with by God.

Who's fault is it that Lucifer existed, or that he had the capacity to bring evil into existence?

Quote:It cost Him the perfect life of the Christ, the greatest part of the creation He so loves, no He didn't sacrifice anything, but in the end creation would see what evil really does and will be glad God put an end to it.

You've just described a protection racket.

Quote:Yes God could have put a stop to Lucifer but, it would have in the end cost Him the respect of His creation and Lucifer would have been lost forever either way.

Who can respect a being which callously allows so many innocent people to suffer so profoundly, just to prove a point? I mean, besides someone who glorifies cruelty and malice as yourself.

(May 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Praetorian Wrote: Dr. Manhattan is sort of the god character in that story, but the point is, withholding action when you could have prevented something makes you complicit with it. He didn't have to kill the comedian either, he could turn the bullets into vapor, which the comedian tells him.

This is unreasonable when you are powerless to do anything about a situation, but if you're all-powerful, you can do all the things to stop it.

Yeah, that's the part I've never understood either: if we've got a benevolent god looking over the world, why don't we live in a universe where every time someone goes to shoot another person, the gun jams, or the bullet misses? Why don't we live in a world where every attempt at non consensual sex leads to a sudden bout of impotence? Or where every assault suddenly leaves the attacker very, very uncoordinated? You'd still have the free will to attempt those actions, the only thing specifically being removed is the harm.

(May 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Praetorian Wrote: Posting from a phone sure is annoying when there are multiple things to respond to.

First, GC, why does God nees to be respected by his creation? That's a non-sequitur, but it still doesn't make any sense. God doesn't need our approval, and if he wanted it, he still didn't need to sit idly by and let the world unfold like it did. I'd contest that the world we see around us is far more likely to occur if there is no god, rather than a loving one who needs to earn the respect of the things he created by doing nothing to help them.

Exactly where did I say God was trying to earn respect, you see what you are doing, making your disrespect for God into my thoughts, that is at least dishonest. You keep your thoughts about God out of my statements and apply them to yours, be honest and we can cut down on unnecessary argument.
God deserves our respect no matter how one might feel about Him, the creator and giver of life could as you put it interfere in my life and zap you out of this existence, and cause everyone who knows you to forget you ever existed. This would not be fair to you, because you might be going ......... well you know, it on the other hand could be good for others but they would not know it because no one would have ever known you existed. This by no means is a reflection on you because in reality I do not know you other than our few exchanges, this is an example of what could happen with God interfering in one's life, someone else is always effected, none of are here alone.
God needs nothing and never has, His omni........ takes care of that, He does desire our love for Him and a desire is far different than a need. Even with love God can no more force our love than we can force another's love, this is a desire that all of His omni........ can not do, if He could have don't you think He would have. He would not have had to allow Christ to sacrifice Himself for us and all the other things His creation has put Him through, He's allowed these things because of His patient love. Yes He deserves our unfailing love!

(May 22, 2013 at 11:20 am)Godschild Wrote: I believe through the scriptures and reasoning that God did not create evil, Lucifer brought evil into existence by living outside the will of God. This makes Lucifer responsible for the evil in the creation. I could plant and grow a beautiful garden, which I'm responsible for and then some crazy comes along with a truck and drives through the garden and mess it up.

The difference being that you didn't create the truck with the foreknowledge that it would one day crash into your garden and mess up your tulips.

The whole perspective you've taken puts you in a box. You can't get around it by saying "but Satan!" when satan was a creation of god, you know, the all powerful, all knowing being that, by definition, must have known already what would happen the moment he 'created' satan (it would have actually known it in time immaterial if it's omni-faceted, but w/e).

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(May 23, 2013 at 12:28 am)Godschild Wrote: God needs nothing and never has,

Ok.

(May 23, 2013 at 12:28 am)Godschild Wrote: His omni........ takes care of that, He does desire our love for Him and a desire is far different than a need.

How?

What's the difference between "I desire to have sex with my wife" and "I want to have sex with my wife"?

(May 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Praetorian Wrote: Uh...that's my whole argument. If he is those things, then he must do certain things. If you don't believe he is those things, then he is limited. AFAIK, no Christian doctrine ever said God was limited. Except the whole chariots of iron bit.

I don't subscribe to omnibenevolence, so your whole arguments fails.

(May 23, 2013 at 8:53 am)John V Wrote:

(May 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Praetorian Wrote: Uh...that's my whole argument. If he is those things, then he must do certain things. If you don't believe he is those things, then he is limited. AFAIK, no Christian doctrine ever said God was limited. Except the whole chariots of iron bit.

I don't subscribe to omnibenevolence, so your whole arguments fails.

You don't have to, but what if you were to leave a loaded gun in a room full of children, and one those children took the gun and kill someone, I'm quite sure you would be criminally charged.

God is in that position in regard to his creation, omnibenevolent or not.