(May 23, 2013 at 8:58 am)little_monkey Wrote: You don't have to, but what if you were to leave a loaded gun in a room full of children, and one those children took the gun and kill someone, I'm quite sure you would be criminally charged.

God is in that position in regard to his creation, omnibenevolent or not.

Hardly. A more apt analogy would be that I created some robots and allowed one to talk another into breaking a rule I had set for them.

(May 23, 2013 at 10:13 am)John V Wrote:

(May 23, 2013 at 8:58 am)little_monkey Wrote: You don't have to, but what if you were to leave a loaded gun in a room full of children, and one those children took the gun and kill someone, I'm quite sure you would be criminally charged.

God is in that position in regard to his creation, omnibenevolent or not.

Hardly. A more apt analogy would be that I created some robots and allowed one to talk another into breaking a rule I had set for them.

I wasn't thinking of the bible, which is a totally christian thing, but thanks anyway for this "apt" analogy.

(May 22, 2013 at 9:15 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Yeah, that's the part I've never understood either: if we've got a benevolent god looking over the world, why don't we live in a universe where every time someone goes to shoot another person, the gun jams, or the bullet misses?

Well, people wouldn't make guns if they always jammed would they. Humans are rather clever at finding ways to do evil. God made us ingenious so that we could do good. And He created the world to have order and operate according to physical laws so we can reasonably predict the results of our actions. Seems like you are complaining that God gave human beings both intelligence and the ability to use it to our own ends. Would you rather be stupid and ineffective?

I do not know why He chooses to interfere only rarely. He knows better than I do, and its not my place to tell God what he should and shouldn't do. I do not pretend to be wiser than God, but that seems to be the position of most atheists, i.e that they are wiser than God. That strikes me as arrogant.

(May 23, 2013 at 10:18 am)little_monkey Wrote: I wasn't thinking of the bible, which is a totally christian thing, but thanks anyway for this "apt" analogy.

This is the Christianity forum ya know.

(May 23, 2013 at 1:04 pm)John V Wrote:

(May 23, 2013 at 10:18 am)little_monkey Wrote: I wasn't thinking of the bible, which is a totally christian thing, but thanks anyway for this "apt" analogy.

This is the Christianity forum ya know.

Sure, but who cares?

The argument from evil, atheism's killer argument. Killer because the believer's can't get around it, not that they will ever admit it. I doubt that anybody ever put it as eloquently as Epicurus:

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
There really is no way to dispute the truth of this, and it is not like I didn't try. But you can look and look and look, and it is still there. Evil exists. God is supposedly omnimax. That means it had to come from him. Everything comes from him. That means he is responsible for evil, which means he is a malevolent being. What kind of god is that?

Yeah, I know that your religioholics are going to tie themselves up in all kinds of knots because they are now in danger of not getting their god-fix. (Maybe we should start a new 12-step group for these guys. The higher power would be real-world evidence) When you've been immersed in this from as long back as you can remember, it is difficult to free your mind from it. It is quite frightening, actually. I don't think I will get much argument about that from my fellows on this site that came to atheism from religious backgrounds. Especially if they had parents that were kind of fanatical. You cannot bear the thought that there is no one up there. You always thank him for all the good things, and let him off the hook for the bad things. Why do you think that they are called “good God-fearing people”? They are afraid, that is why. Oh, sure they will tell you about the wonders of God's love, but even if they do not admit it they are frightened. What if I'm gonna be one of those who doesn't get to go to heaven? What if I messed up somehow? I can't get mad at these guys, no matter how bloody annoying they may get, because that used to be me.

But then it finally sinks in – there is no workable theodicy to let sky-daddy off the hook. It just doesn't make any bloody sense any other way. No one is there. You can A/S/K all you want, if you think you are getting an answer that is just because you want to be. It isn't reality. Then one day I was struck from my RD-400 while on the road to Sodom-on-the-Hudson (aka NYC) and a booming voice came out of the sky and spoke to me:“Why? Why? Why are you falling for this crap? Reality is far more interesting, and Christopher Hitchens is a far better writer than those iron-age nomads. And he has a sense of humor, something they sorely lack! Pick up your cycle and run rings around every Hardly-Ableson you come across as a sign of your conversion to reality!

I was saved! Thanks to the great god Reality, which could no longer be denied. And God can't blame anyone but his own self. If he had just not put that damned tree in the garden and committed the first act of entrapment. (It kinda gives you this picture of J Edgar Hoover with a beard and flowing white robe. Ugh! That's what I get for putting cheap gin in my martini's.) That brought evil into the world and the whole thing went to hell in a bucket. And Jstrodel, Drippy and GC can scream all they want, but Reality shall smite their sky-daddy over and over again. Hallelujah!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you have to do is replace "is malevolent" with "has his own purposes."

(May 23, 2013 at 12:34 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Well, people wouldn't make guns if they always jammed would they. Humans are rather clever at finding ways to do evil. God made us ingenious so that we could do good. And He created the world to have order and operate according to physical laws so we can reasonably predict the results of our actions. Seems like you are complaining that God gave human beings both intelligence and the ability to use it to our own ends. Would you rather be stupid and ineffective?

I do not know why He chooses to interfere only rarely. He knows better than I do, and its not my place to tell God what he should and shouldn't do. I do not pretend to be wiser than God, but that seems to be the position of most atheists, i.e that they are wiser than God. That strikes me as arrogant.

Nobody in this thread has claimed they are wiser than God (yet). The entire purpose of even talking about this is just to voice my objections.

If @JohnV is going to concede omnibenevolence, and you are going chalk my objections up to mysterious ways, that's perfectly fine. It won't destroy your faith, and you don't even necessarily lose the argument. All any of us are saying is that the structure of Christianity has cracks in it, and we need to point them out. I applaud Christians who are willing to question and doubt what they believe in. Inquiry is a sign of intellectual honesty.

(May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm)John V Wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you have to do is replace "is malevolent" with "has his own purposes."

No, he is malevolent. But you can't afford to admit that to yourself.

(May 23, 2013 at 2:19 pm)John V Wrote: Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you have to do is replace "is malevolent" with "has his own purposes."

If someone was allergic to the word malevolent, sure - you wouldn't be one of those people though, because you're okay with a god capable of malevolence. No matter what purpose malevolence serves - it is still malevolence.

You think that this gets you around something? You're just conceding without being able to bring yourself to say the word.