Ethics question for theists - serious - looking for opinions not argument.

[drfuzzy]

Greetings to the collective brain.  Atheists are welcome to chime in on this . . . but I'm really looking for Christian responses.  I have a lot of Christian (mostly Catholic) friends, but I can't ask them, because they know the area churches and would know who I'm talking about.
     For background, I'm a lesbian.  (And an atheist.)  I play the organ for Catholic Mass once a week.  I think I'm a rare example of my breed - I told the music director and the priest about my orientation.  Before you think I'm bragging, I have NOT told the choir members.  I know that many of them would be outraged.  But I need the $$.

I have a female friend who is married to a woman.  This person gets hired to do religious retreats in churches.  She travels the country doing these retreats.  She brings a male assistant to these retreats and introduces him as her husband.  (He's gay.)  

Another friend of ours asked me yesterday if somebody shouldn't tell the churches that _____ is a lesbian.  I replied that the question made me very nervous, because if the choir knew about me, I could be fired.  I asked if she had some problem with homosexuals in the church, and she said no - but she has a problem with homosexuals that lie about their orientation and then get paid (and paid well) to lead religious retreats.  She said that the comments people made at these retreats - about how the leader is so "wonderfully spiritual and clearly inspired" and how "it's great to see a husband and wife team so dedicated to the Lord" just make her sick.

Well, I haven't told the choir folks about my orientation, and yes, I get paid, and yes, they think I'm spiritual and worshipful and blessed.  I don't correct them.  I didn't know how to respond to this person, other than to beg her not to do anything.

Thoughts?  Should somebody "out" my friend, who makes a living leading religious retreats while lying about her home life?  Should I quit playing for church?  (I probably should find another source of additional income, I know.  But I love some of these people.  I'm not a believer, but the music is fun.)

-- Fuzz

[brewer]

"Let those without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind.

As for the outing person, I'd suggest to her that she speak to the priest before doing anything. She may not understand the potential ramifications of her intended action. Should people in this church be outed for other offenses? Where do they draw the line?

As for the person doing the traveling shows, I'm not sure what her motivation is to take a gay man and publicly announce that he is her husband, other than money. That is intentional deceit and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. She put herself in that situation and may have to pay for the consequences. I don't think you need to beg to protect her.

There is no reason that I can think of that you need to out yourself. You are being paid for a service, not for your morality.

[drfuzzy]

"Let those without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind.

As for the outing person, I'd suggest to her that she speak to the priest before doing anything. She may not understand the potential ramifications of her intended action. Should people in this church be outed for other offenses? Where do they draw the line?

As for the person doing the traveling shows, I'm not sure what her motivation is to take a gay man and publicly announce that he is her husband, other than money. That is intentional deceit and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. She put herself in that situation and may have to pay for the consequences. I don't think you need to beg to protect her.

There is no reason that I can think of that you need to out yourself. You are being paid for a service, not for your morality.

Thanks, mh.  I appreciate it.  This person's questions got me wondering.  She's a very . . . judgmental sort of person.  

But I do agree with you (and my judgmental friend) about the deception.  It makes me uncomfortable.  I asked _____ why, and her response was that she just doesn't want people asking questions.  (Hmmm.  Not my business, though, really.)
     And it's not like she's just a con artist.  She really believes the stuff she's preaching.  (In fact, I have distanced myself a little because she gets preachy and pushy with me.  That "I'll pray for you to feel god's presence" crap can get annoying.)   She thinks that within a decade, people will be more accepting, and she'll be able to be honest about her home life.  We'll see . . .

[brewer]

Thanks, mh.  I appreciate it.  This person's questions got me wondering.  She's a very . . . judgmental sort of person.  

But I do agree with you (and my judgmental friend) about the deception.  It makes me uncomfortable.  I asked _____ why, and her response was that she just doesn't want people asking questions.  (Hmmm.  Not my business, though, really.)
     And it's not like she's just a con artist.  She really believes the stuff she's preaching.  (In fact, I have distanced myself a little because she gets preachy and pushy with me.  That "I'll pray for you to feel god's presence" crap can get annoying.)   She thinks that within a decade, people will be more accepting, and she'll be able to be honest about her home life.  We'll see . . .

Were there not honest ways to avoid questions like "my spouse has other conflicting duties/responsibilities"?

The lie makes this is a con any way that you look at it. But, she is not unique. There are plenty of people who run cons in religion. This just makes her a hypocrite also.

[Catholic_Lady]

Greetings to the collective brain.  Atheists are welcome to chime in on this . . . but I'm really looking for Christian responses.  I have a lot of Christian (mostly Catholic) friends, but I can't ask them, because they know the area churches and would know who I'm talking about.
     For background, I'm a lesbian.  (And an atheist.)  I play the organ for Catholic Mass once a week.  I think I'm a rare example of my breed - I told the music director and the priest about my orientation.  Before you think I'm bragging, I have NOT told the choir members.  I know that many of them would be outraged.  But I need the $$.

I have a female friend who is married to a woman.  This person gets hired to do religious retreats in churches.  She travels the country doing these retreats.  She brings a male assistant to these retreats and introduces him as her husband.  (He's gay.)  

Another friend of ours asked me yesterday if somebody shouldn't tell the churches that _____ is a lesbian.  I replied that the question made me very nervous, because if the choir knew about me, I could be fired.  I asked if she had some problem with homosexuals in the church, and she said no - but she has a problem with homosexuals that lie about their orientation and then get paid (and paid well) to lead religious retreats.  She said that the comments people made at these retreats - about how the leader is so "wonderfully spiritual and clearly inspired" and how "it's great to see a husband and wife team so dedicated to the Lord" just make her sick.

Well, I haven't told the choir folks about my orientation, and yes, I get paid, and yes, they think I'm spiritual and worshipful and blessed.  I don't correct them.  I didn't know how to respond to this person, other than to beg her not to do anything.

Thoughts?  Should somebody "out" my friend, who makes a living leading religious retreats while lying about her home life?  Should I quit playing for church?  (I probably should find another source of additional income, I know.  But I love some of these people.  I'm not a believer, but the music is fun.)

-- Fuzz

I think you may be surprised at the response of your choir members. I highly doubt they would be outraged or that they would stop liking you. With that being said, I don't see the need to tell them. Not because they would think less of you for it, but because I don't think it's really any of their business to know about your sexual preferences. If you want to tell them for whatever reason, go ahead... but only do it if you want to. You have no moral obligation to do so. 

As for the retreat leader, I don't think it's right that she's lying about her marriage. Personally I wouldn't say anything if it were me who knew that information because it's really none of my business, but the retreat leader herself should be honest.

[Catholic_Lady]

"Let those without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind.

As for the outing person, I'd suggest to her that she speak to the priest before doing anything. She may not understand the potential ramifications of her intended action. Should people in this church be outed for other offenses? Where do they draw the line?

As for the person doing the traveling shows, I'm not sure what her motivation is to take a gay man and publicly announce that he is her husband, other than money. That is intentional deceit and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. She put herself in that situation and may have to pay for the consequences. I don't think you need to beg to protect her.

There is no reason that I can think of that you need to out yourself. You are being paid for a service, not for your morality.

Great advice

[brewer]

Great advice

Thanks. On the rare occasion I have my minor moments.

[vorlon13]

Let's 'out' the divorced and remarrieds sneaking into the communion line first (cough, Rudy Giuliani, cough).

And DNA test all the kids in the congregation to make sure any possible horny priest in the diocese didn't father any of them.

And it wouldn't hurt to compare amounts claimed on tax returns for church donations jibe with parish records.


If anyone is left after that, I'd still be cautious about outing lesbians in a catholic church.

[drfuzzy]

A big THANK YOU to mh and CL for absolutely wise and gentle responses.  I feel a little better.  -- A little less like . . . oh, a fraud . . . I suppose.  Also nice to know that others are also a little disturbed by my friend's (the retreat leader) deceptive practices.  (I'm just not in any position to be judgmental.)



And Vor - LOL!  We can depend on you for a logical, if somewhat black humor, twist!   

[Catholic_Lady]

A big THANK YOU to mh and CL for absolutely wise and gentle responses.  I feel a little better.  -- A little less like . . . oh, a fraud . . . I suppose.  Also nice to know that others are also a little disturbed by my friend's (the retreat leader) deceptive practices.  (I'm just not in any position to be judgmental.)



And Vor - LOL!  We can depend on you for a logical, if somewhat black humor, twist!   

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.