He's not rustlin' anything except wheat sheaves, Gilg.

Maybe a little exercise is in order. Pick some favorite food of yours, give a few of the reasons that you like it. It can be a plant, an animal, a fungus, whatever you like.

Can it be... A SHEPHERDS PIE?

I like it because yum.

Absolutely, now I don't know what goes into yours, but mine is potatoes, peas, carrots, and beef. That sound about right?
(it'll be a little less simple since it's a dish, but if you don't mind following along, I don't mind giving you the narrative from a diff pov)

(June 3, 2013 at 4:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Absolutely, now I don't know what goes into yours, but mine is potatoes, peas, carrots, and beef. That sound about right?
(it'll be a little less simple since it's a dish, but if you don't mind following along, I don't mind giving you the narrative from a diff pov)

Do you even corn and onions?

But sure, let's go with yours.

LMAO! How can it be Shepherd's Pie if it has beef?

Sometimes, yeah. It doesn't matter too much which veggies we throw into it because we're a solution to a problem that they all have.

So here we have a collection of plants. All, to one degree or another, edible (or able to become edible). They're very different from each other. The one thing they all have in common is a dire lack of ability in the locomotion dept (some listed less so than others). They'd "like" to move, mind you, insomuch as they like anything - because this translates into increased breeding opportunities, increased territory and range, in short, biological success. Now how might we (as the plants) solve our communal problem? Well, we could sub out some other organism, something with legs - or wings. We could play on it's biology, manipulate it's behavior, fulfill it's desires - so that it favors us over others. That way the legged or winged thing does the heavy lifting, the low skill day labor...while we handle the complicated chemistry which those organisms are patently incapable of handling - namely, the sex. It may not normally occur to you, but you, much like a bee - just might have been tricked into carrying the sex organs and secretions of plants from place to place for no benefit of your own -in your mouth- (on your hands, your clothes, in your car, in freight trains filled to the brim powered by metric shitloads of fuel extracted at a high cost in labor and lives....)...look at all the work we do for them - propagating them, feeding them, watering them, manicuring and primping and preening and pampering them...... killing their competitors..... for the very low cost of a milligram of sugar-which to them, is a simple bi-product.

Some of us even like to do it. It makes us smile, brings us peace and joy....

Sounds like power to me, how about you?

(June 3, 2013 at 4:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sounds like power to me, how about you?

Nope. Sounds like a good deal. We aren't being put at a disadvantage by walking around and doing plants a favour. Like you said, they even fulfill our desires. Power goes by many definitions but the one you're going for is probably the ability to influence other beings, in which case, depending on what one considers 'influence', everything has power over everything.

When I was speaking of our power over other animals, I wasn't thinking to dive into semantics. I was using 'power' to describe our ability to exploit.

(June 3, 2013 at 4:54 pm)Gilgamesh Wrote: Nope. Sounds like a good deal. We aren't being put at a disadvantage by walking around and doing plants a favour.

They're put at even less of a disadvantage by subbing us out as subsistence laborers. In fact - there is no disadvantage to them whatsoever. For us, the situation is much more uncertain. It's not even important to them that -you- or any human being, is the one doing the lifting. Anything with legs or wings will do.

Quote:Like you said, they even fulfill our desires. Power goes by many definitions but the one you're going for is probably the ability to influence other beings, in which case, depending on what one considers 'influence', everything has power over everything.

Au contrare...lets see you stop eating, they'll be just fine if we stop farming. Sure, the weakest among them will die - but isn't it amusing to realize that our national agricultural expenditures amounts to nothing less than a billion dollar tomato welfare plan?

Quote:When I was speaking of our power over other animals, I wasn't thinking to dive into semantics. I was using 'power' to describe our ability to exploit.

We are -ourselves- exploited by these organisms.

Now, lol, don't get me wrong, I like to put myself in front of the food as well - and that's understandable. But the next time you happen to see a field of corn growing, at least let your mind wander to what sinister plot those leaves have cooked up for you - you, powerless to resist them. This is why "power" or "might" not being a very good justification for rights anywhere..is even less so in this relationship.

---

and this, btw, is how we circle round to childhood indoctrination. We are taught, at a very early age, to think of this relationship in the manner that we commonly do. When we go about trying to justify some part of this relationship later, we do so without realizing that we are merely rationalizing a position already held - built upon a deeply flawed assumption about that relationship.

Unfortunately, I'm rather attached to dairy products, so I don't think becoming a vegan would suit me. Let me know when there's such a thing as decent vegan cheese, and I'm in. (And I've tried vegan cheese, it was like a combination of rubber and plastic, so no, it was not good. I threw up.) I'm currently a vegetarian for ethical reasons as it is.

There is no ethical defense for the way we treat animals. The greatest philosophers in the world have tried to come up with one, and none stand. However, meat-eating and dairy farming still exist because we as a culture are so attached and accustomed to meat and dairy products. It's not a good enough excuse, but can we really fault people for mainstream behavior? I mean, they're just conforming to social norms, you're the one whose behavior is deviant.

That's my defense for straight people, too.