(June 3, 2013 at 11:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Beyond a litany of bare assertion? I kind of make it a habit to go no further than that. There's no need to.

What do you think this is, science class? I made a logical argument. Refute it with logic. Is it possible to love without free will? Is love a legitimate reason for a good God to allow evil? In philosophy, arguments are made with logic and thought experiments. Use logic and/or thought experiments to show how one could answer "no" to both of the above questions.

(June 1, 2013 at 5:55 pm)Zarith Wrote: Nice to meet you and appreciate your response ronedee. Even though I don't believe what you believe I can't help but smile at the sincerity of this response, in a good way, haha.

But if I am to be like God, that means that I am to be like an entity that chooses to allow evil to exist. Let's ignore the basis of my unbelief for the moment, which is that I see no reason to believe.

If I did believe, I am supposed to strive toward something which I cannot prove exists, cannot understand, and am not allowed to judge by the moral standards that have been given to me.

This makes no sense to me! How could I know that it is right to strive toward such a state? How could I possibly know, for example, that I am not being deceived?

If I did believe in God, I would have to believe in one that created me with a desire to understand things that I cannot possibly understand.

Thanks Zarith! Pleasure to meet you too! You actually sound a lot like my youngest brother Chris! Great kid, smart as a whip! Graduated Air Force Academy with distinguished honors! The ONLY male in history to have ever done so! 2 women have also.

Anyway, we've had countless conversations about God and religion. He's a loving person, but just "can't believe in God"! The problem is, that his personal life is always in some kind of turmoil. Now I've been blasted here on this forum for making this connection, but... I was in my brothers shoes at one point (questioning God), and my life was hell! Since I've come to the Lord, my whole life has changed for the better! And... IT JUST GETS BETTER!! REALLY!!

I'm not rich, but the Lord has provided many, many things both materially and spiritually and physically!

But, its been an evolution! It wasn't over-night, year or decade that I have been convinced...or brainwashed as your buddies here like to say! LOL!

I will say to you, as I've said to my brother Chris! Just keep an open heart. Try to let logic go once-in-a while, and just "ask" with sincerity! That's all. If there is a spark, then go to the next step! If there isn't? Nothing ventured. Peace bro! Ron

(June 4, 2013 at 1:54 am)Undeceived Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 11:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Beyond a litany of bare assertion? I kind of make it a habit to go no further than that. There's no need to.

What do you think this is, science class? I made a logical argument. Refute it with logic. Is it possible to love without free will? Is love a legitimate reason for a good God to allow evil? In philosophy, arguments are made with logic and thought experiments. Use logic and/or thought experiments to show how one could answer "no" to both of the above questions.

Can someone love through freedom of will if it is made explicitly clear that failure to show enough love will result in nightmarish, endless torment?

Could not an all-powerful God devised a way for love to exist without evil being a necessary part of it?

(June 3, 2013 at 11:55 pm)Zarith Wrote:

Quote:And humanity would stop hurting others and allowing hunger... why? For what rational reason? I can think of only one reason: love. But that doesn't exist. So you must be describing a world without rational reasons--a world in which we are robots or animals. Can a robot or animal judge that the sudden absence of hunger, disease and war is a change for the better? Or perhaps I should ask: Are you willing to give up your humanity in order to eliminate evil?

Well ... no. You would be you, having woken up to see a great many bad things removed from existence, and retaining an understanding of what they were and why they were bad. I didn't specify why, for all I care we could assume that it was completely and totally inexplicable. Did eliminating smallpox make us "less human"? If we knew how, would eliminating the impulse that some adults have to sexually assault children make us "robots"? Would you really be the one to say, "Hey guys, maybe that's not such a good idea, after all someone needs to rape a child every now and then so that we can all understand the nature of good". These aren't supposed to be trick questions.

The only earthly reason everyone would refrain from injuring others and would end starvation, ect. is if none of us were rational beings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you were not rational, you could scarcely make a judgment about the situation. It would be impossible to say, "This was a good idea" after the fact. Take away some free will, you take it all away. Evil isn't just the removal of impulse. It includes evil by omission. So not only must humans have no tendency whatsoever for competition, they must be naturally compelled to aid their fellow human beings. Since there is no love or emotion, the aid would be out of duty. Is that the sort of entity you want to be--not even capable of noticing the good your cells are doing?

(June 4, 2013 at 2:01 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 1:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: What do you think this is, science class? I made a logical argument. Refute it with logic. Is it possible to love without free will? Is love a legitimate reason for a good God to allow evil? In philosophy, arguments are made with logic and thought experiments. Use logic and/or thought experiments to show how one could answer "no" to both of the above questions.

Can someone love through freedom of will if it is made explicitly clear that failure to show enough love will result in nightmarish, endless torment?

Could not an all-powerful God devised a way for love to exist without evil being a necessary part of it?

Hate to barge in here ...but I couldn't help myself!

God wants us to be like Him! If you think about it... its the only way we could exist together. So, how does a God give us His divinity, without making us "The God"?

Answer: By purification!

I know this raises more questions, but without evil there is no contrast. There is no option. There is no cleansing of impurity! There is no spiritual growth.

We start as "peas" spiritually. We either grow (spiritually) or wither and die (with the flesh)! Because we were created in "God's image", there is a "seed" that we are in care of! It either bursts into a Redwood, or turns into kindling!

And because we are still "seeds" of God, He can't destroy us (i.e.) put us out of total existence! Unfortunately, that's where hell comes in. And where we put ourselves, apart from God...if that is our will.

Again, sorry for the intrusion! I hope I made somewhat logical points. Ron

(June 4, 2013 at 2:01 am)Ryantology Wrote: Can someone love through freedom of will if it is made explicitly clear that failure to show enough love will result in nightmarish, endless torment?

Yes, they can love, but their love would be completely unrelated to the possible torment. Earlier we discussed the kidnapper scenario. No matter how much the kidnapper threatens, he cannot compel his prisoner to love him. Is this supposed to relate to the Argument from evil?

(June 4, 2013 at 2:01 am)Ryantology Wrote: Could not an all-powerful God devised a way for love to exist without evil being a necessary part of it?

Can you think of a way? If not, I believe you make an argument from ignorance, or may be guilty of the equivocation fallacy.

Quote:The only earthly reason everyone would refrain from injuring others and would end starvation, ect. is if none of us were rational beings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are incorrect, and don't really offer justification for this claim. But, that's not really important, because I'll use a new example of evil, one which specifically addresses your rationality argument: mental illness, specifically, psychosis. God waves his hands, psychosis disappears forever, psychotic people become normal. Are you going to argue that they are less rational as a result?

Evidently, we won't love god anymore once in heaven, as there will be no contrasting evil. Wouldn't you think senile god would have thought of that by now?

(June 4, 2013 at 5:57 am)Zarith Wrote:

Quote:The only earthly reason everyone would refrain from injuring others and would end starvation, ect. is if none of us were rational beings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are incorrect, and don't really offer justification for this claim. But, that's not really important, because I'll use a new example of evil, one which specifically addresses your rationality argument: mental illness, specifically, psychosis. God waves his hands, psychosis disappears forever, psychotic people become normal. Are you going to argue that they are less rational as a result?

For a theist to allow for god to cure a psychosis would open the door to "curing" otherwise evil behavior in people. Which is it, theists? Does your particular brand of god change people's behavior or doesn't it?

(June 4, 2013 at 1:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: What do you think this is, science class? I made a logical argument. Refute it with logic.

You're having trouble understanding the concept of a bare assertion? I'm well aware that we aren't doing any science - the bar is much lower here, in this conversation. You've failed to raise above that lowered bar.

Quote:Is it possible to love without free will? Is love a legitimate reason for a good God to allow evil? In philosophy, arguments are made with logic and thought experiments. Use logic and/or thought experiments to show how one could answer "no" to both of the above questions.

There is no impetus for me to do so. For someone who seems to think they're running a clinic on logic you've managed to get that one about as wrong as you possibly could. It's disappointing though, isn't it, my refusal to yank your dick until you demonstrate that you have one?