(June 5, 2013 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: A person doing more time for shooting the President than for shooting another civilian is in no way a miscarriage of justice.

Actually, it is, as we have a principle of equality in justice (in fact...a principle that is fundamental to the very concept of justice itself). Nevertheless, it's not the relative authority of a dead president that might give rise to a differing sentence for an identical crime.

Quote:You were treating two options as mutually exclusive when they are not, that’s constructing a false dichotomy.

Bzzzzt. They -are- mutually exclusive. Our system does not assign weight to a crime by appraising the level of authority of the victim. We maintain a principle of equality under law. You will receive the same justice for the same crime as any other. It is -the crime- that determines the punitive measure. It doesn't always pan out that way - our system is fallible..surprise surprise.

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I do not have to, we already use a very similar system to the one God uses.

NO, of course not, we can compare the two already offered without needing a third, or a 300th. Thank you.

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Nope, I already gave numerous examples where we use the very same reasoning that we find in scripture. Secondly, by definition God’s concept of justice could never fall short of ours, so if the two differ at all it means that ours is the one that falls short.

You mean miscarriages of justice? Yes, agreed...you did give numerous examples. Ah, I see, when your god cannot match the fallible earthly systems lowered bar - that we struggle to maintain - the fault lies with our system? No dice.

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It’s a faulty analogy because you’ve created a financial disparity between the victims, we have to remove that variable. A better example would be, you steal 100 dollars from a circuit judge who is worth 500,000 dollars and I steal 100 dollars from my neighbor (an engineer) who is also worth 500,000 dollars you’d be sentenced to more time because of the authority of your victim and rightly so. Send a threatening letter to your neighbor and then send a threatening letter to President Obama and see which one you do more time for.

It's not, we have two people of differing levels of authority - the crime is identical. We could go with your example as well. Thank you very much - for at least having the sack to advocate for the uneven application of justice -thereby eradicating the foundation of the very principle itself...all so you can defend an unfortunate belief dearly held.

God shoots and misses, but I'm sure if he keeps trying he'll get one eventually...law of large numbers.

(would you mind doing it just one more time for me...come up with another situation in which two perpetrators of an identical crime deserve lesser or greater punishment for that identical crime due to the relative difference of authority their victims hold?)

(June 5, 2013 at 7:02 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Amen. [sic added by SW]

And Darwin bless you!

(June 5, 2013 at 7:02 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Ok, but I am still curious as to how you reason from all of these descriptive statements about how Humans think and behave to a moral set of normative rules telling us how we ought to live. I think you’ll find you cannot construct a valid proof to support this line of reasoning.

You are probably right that I couldn't construct a valid proof. Without more knowledge and study of primitive cultures and how their systems of religion and law developed, all I would be doing is speculation built on guesses. "I think it could have developed this way" isn't a proof, and might not even be on the right track.

(June 5, 2013 at 8:10 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Actually, it is, as we have a principle of equality in justice (in fact...a principle that is fundamental to the very concept of justice itself). Nevertheless, it's not the relative authority of a dead president that might give rise to a differing sentence for an identical crime.

Where is that principle found? If it’s not his authority then what is it?

Quote:Bzzzzt. They -are- mutually exclusive. Our system does not assign weight to a crime by appraising the level of authority of the victim. We maintain a principle of equality under law. You will receive the same justice for the same crime as any other. It is -the crime- that determines the punitive measure. It doesn't always pan out that way - our system is fallible..surprise surprise.

Yes, the severity of the crime determines the severity of the punishment, but the severity of the crime is determined by mitigating and aggravating circumstances and the authority of the victim is often taken into account at that point of sentencing.

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You mean miscarriages of justice?

If you believe any of those examples are a miscarriage of justice you must now appeal to a concept of justice that is outside of the US Justice System to compare them to (since none of them are viewed as a miscarriage by our system). So now what’s your new standard and why does it take precedence over the US Justice System?

Quote: Ah, I see, when your god cannot match the fallible earthly systems lowered bar - that we struggle to maintain - the fault lies with our system?

[Emphasis added by SW]

Yes, when a fallible system does not measure up to an infallible system, the fault always lies with the fallible system- pretty basic reasoning really.

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It's not, we have two people of differing levels of authority - the crime is identical. We could go with your example as well. Thank you very much - for at least having the sack to advocate for the uneven application of justice -thereby eradicating the foundation of the very principle itself...all so you can defend an unfortunate belief dearly held.

In law they are called mitigating and aggravating circumstances; they have nothing to do with an uneven application of justice; please learn what you are talking about for once.

Quote: (would you mind doing it just one more time for me...come up with another situation in which two perpetrators of an identical crime deserve lesser or greater punishment for that identical crime due to the relative difference of authority their victims hold?)

Sure, I’ll do it all day long.

A man kills a Police Officer in a traffic stop in Arkansas and receives the death penalty for the murder of the Officer (the Jury openly admits they took into account the fact he killed a Police Officer when recommending the death penalty).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/29...15799.html

A man breaks into the house of a news anchor, rapes her, and kills her; he is convicted of Capital Murder but only receives a life sentence in Arkansas.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/12/arka...hor.slain/

Crimes against a higher authority necessitate a higher punishment.

(June 6, 2013 at 10:36 am)Tonus Wrote: You are probably right that I couldn't construct a valid proof. Without more knowledge and study of primitive cultures and how their systems of religion and law developed, all I would be doing is speculation built on guesses. "I think it could have developed this way" isn't a proof, and might not even be on the right track.

You may be able to demonstrate all of that, but that’s not the logical problem I think you’ll run into. The problem is that it’s not valid to argue from the way things are to the way things ought to be, but when you try to derive your morality from Nature that’s exactly what you are doing. Does that make sense?

So the prisoners that kill other fellow prisoners in jail should get a slap on the wrist because the lowest ranking person in society is an incarcerated prisoner.

oops .. that doesn't happen does it?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/federal-...-prisoners

Agofsky, Shannon White TX 2004 Murder of an inmate at Beaumont Federal Penitentiary in Texas.

Caro, Carlos Latino WV 2007 Killed his cellmate; Both were reportedly members of a gang called the Texas Syndicate.

Ebron, Joseph Black TX 2009 Murdered a fellow inmate at a federal prison in Beaumont, TX.

Garcia, Edgar Latino TX 2010 Murdered a fellow inmate; also stabbed and wounded two corrections officers. (Co-defendant with Mark Snarr)

[Hammer, David Paul] White PA 1998 Killed a fellow inmate in a federal prison in Penn.

[Jackson, David Lee] Black TX 2006 Killed a fellow inmate at the federal prison in Beaumont, TX. Jackson's death sentence was overturned in March 2013 in District Court.

Snarr, Mark White TX 2010 Killed a fellow inmate and stabbed and wounded two corrections officers at the U.S. Penitentiary in Beaumont. (Co-defendant with Edgar Garcia)

etc..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_before_the_law

Aggravating circumstances refer to compounding factors -of a crime- not the authority of the victim numbskull. Aggravated assualt is made worse by being committed with a weapon. Mitigating circumstances do not include "well, the victim really wasn't all that important or powerful..so lets knock the sentence down a notch"............

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A man kills a Police Officer in a traffic stop in Arkansas and receives the death penalty for the murder of the Officer (the Jury openly admits they took into account the fact he killed a Police Officer when recommending the death penalty).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/29...15799.html

God bless America! It's good to see that you think police officers deserve "more justice" than the rest of us.

Quote:A man breaks into the house of a news anchor, rapes her, and kills her; he is convicted of Capital Murder but only receives a life sentence in Arkansas.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/12/arka...hor.slain/

God bless America! It's good to see that you think news anchors (or women..not sure which way you're going with this one) deserve "less justice" than the rest of us - and especially so if any of the rest of us happen to be police officers :looks up:.

You are advocating for a system of justice in which two people can take an identical complaint before the law...and the power or authority of the one relative to the other grants them a right to a greater measure of justice. If that's what you demand out of the divine then so be it., but try not to drag the country we live in down into the mud with you. Have a little civic pride and stop bullshitting yourself about our system of law in an attempt to make excuses for your god.

(June 6, 2013 at 7:15 pm)Brakeman Wrote: So the prisoners that kill other fellow prisoners in jail should get a slap on the wrist because the lowest ranking person in society is an incarcerated prisoner.

Someone who kills another prisoner should (and would) get a lesser punishment than someone who killed the President of the United States, yes.

(June 7, 2013 at 12:43 am)Rhythm Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_before_the_law

Rhythm, my old friend, it’s time to dance again I see

Quote: Aggravating circumstances refer to compounding factors -of a crime- not the authority of the victim numbskull. Aggravated assualt is made worse by being committed with a weapon. Mitigating circumstances do not include "well, the victim really wasn't all that important or powerful..so lets knock the sentence down a notch"............

Numbskull? Ouch. Aggravating circumstances are up to the judge’s discretion and they often include details about the victim (rapes against a younger child receive harsher punishments than those against older children), and one of those factors is the authority of the victim as I have already demonstrated by example. You’re not fairing very well on this one.

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God bless America! It's good to see that you think police officers deserve "more justice" than the rest of us.

It has nothing to do with what I think; I just proved my point. The jury even admitted that was the reason why they recommended the death penalty, looks like you were wrong, oops.

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God bless America! It's good to see that you think news anchors (or women..not sure which way you're going with this one) deserve "less justice" than the rest of us - and especially so if any of the rest of us happen to be police officers

She didn’t receive less justice, justice is served based upon authority in this country; I have proven that. Crimes against a god of infinite authority necessitate a punishment of infinite worth. I am glad to see you think that someone who kills a fellow convicted murderer deserves the same punishment as someone who kills a police officer, that’s pretty sickening.

Quote: You are advocating for a system of justice in which two people can take an identical complaint before the law...and the power or authority of the one relative to the other grants them a right to a greater measure of justice. If that's what you demand out of the divine then so be it., but try not to drag the country we live in down into the mud with you. Have a little civic pride and stop bullshitting yourself about our system of law in an attempt to make excuses for your god.

Our system already operates that way! I have already demonstrated it, now you’re just whining. Unless you can postulate a standard of justice that actually proves that concept is unjust you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

(June 7, 2013 at 7:35 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Rhythm, my old friend, it’s time to dance again I see

There is no dance to be had, and frankly, I wouldn't touch you at this point.

Quote:Numbskull? Ouch. Aggravating circumstances are up to the judge’s discretion and they often include details about the victim (rapes against a younger child receive harsher punishments than those against older children), and one of those factors is the authority of the victim as I have already demonstrated by example. You’re not fairing very well on this one.

Because the crime is compounded by being enacted against a minor -itself another type of crime. The authority of the victim is not a part of our system of law. Please stop insisting that the US be the sort of backwards shithole you seem to dearly wish for it to be.

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It has nothing to do with what I think; I just proved my point. The jury even admitted that was the reason why they recommended the death penalty, looks like you were wrong, oops.

I asked you to give me examples of crimes where the authority of the victim left the perp deserving of a greater or lesser sentence. You're telling me now that this isn't about what you think? You don't think that the offender deserved a greater sentence in the case of the cop due to his authority? Then just who are you having a conversation with while you quote me?

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She didn’t receive less justice, justice is served based upon authority in this country; I have proven that. Crimes against a god of infinite authority necessitate a punishment of infinite worth. I am glad to see you think that someone who kills a fellow convicted murderer deserves the same punishment as someone who kills a police officer, that’s pretty sickening.

She certainly received less justice than the cop, eh? You've proven that our system is fallible - which has never been an issue. I don't care what crimes against your god deserve. I'm only reminding you that your gods concept of justice fails to meet our own. Murderers deserve their due process. All people should receive the same treatment under law - that's what equality under the law means. It cuts to both the person committing the crime and the person who the crime is committed against. If you get railroaded for a crime due to the authority of your victim - while an identical crime has been committed by your cellmate against a less important person and this results in a lesser sentence - call a lawyer.

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Our system already operates that way! I have already demonstrated it, now you’re just whining. Unless you can postulate a standard of justice that actually proves that concept is unjust you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

It absolutely does, and again I'd never contend that it was infallible. Our standard of justice demands that it does not. Standards of justice aren't proven - they're set.

Are we done here?

Quote:It’s a faulty analogy because you’ve created a financial disparity between the victims, we have to remove that variable. A better example would be, you steal 100 dollars from a circuit judge who is worth 500,000 dollars and I steal 100 dollars from my neighbor (an engineer) who is also worth 500,000 dollars you’d be sentenced to more time because of the authority of your victim and rightly so.

See what happens when you waste too much of your time reading silly old superstitions, Waldork? You miss the reality of modern jurisprudence.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/weird/Man-Sen...37971.html

Quote:Man Sentenced to 50 Years for Stealing Ribs
Willie Smith Ward's theft of the $35 rack of pork ribs turned into a robbery after he threatened a grocery store employee who tried to stop him in 2011.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/se...=firefox-a

Quote:AUGUSTA, Maine (AP) - An Augusta woman has received a four-year suspended sentence for embezzling more than $50,000 from a Hallowell lawyer and using the money to pay for hunting trips to Africa and Australia for her husband.

You see, what matters is the color of your collar.

As if we actually needed any of Statlers "divinely inspired" problems fucking with our justice system. It's clearly bad enough without people such as himself attempting to re-write it to match their gods failures as an adjudicator.