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Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
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 (June 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm)BettyG Wrote: I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics. Miracles(supposedly) are physical phenomena. Therefore, science is the tool to use to discern them from natural ones.  (June 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm)BettyG Wrote: I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics. Reason and logic cannot lead one to the supernatural, because no honest knowledge can be attained from logic and reason which cannot be ultimately grounded in physical reality. Intuition is not to be trusted. It only ever leads to truth by accident. Science describes the foundations of all information we can honestly call knowledge. If an assertion cannot be grounded in reality, it is no better than a blind guess and should not be taken seriously by anybody. If it is impossible to test and confirm independently (and no, correlating blind guesses do not count as independent confirmation), it is a lie to call it knowledge.  (June 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm)BettyG Wrote: I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics. We can only perceive physical things, though. If it's non-physical then we can't say it exists at all. So hey, if you want your god to be completely inaccessible and beyond everything, then cool; I have no reason to believe he exists at all, neither do you, and your entire claim falls apart. The only thing we could really say is that, since your "reason, logic and intuition" have led you to believe in an imaginary friend that nobody can see or hear, your ability to be rational is suspect. However, if you're claiming, as you were in the OP, that god causes things to happen in the world as miracles, then congrats, because you've made a claim that's testable by science, and hence falsifiable. Good show. So, which is it? Is your god distant and ineffective in the world, and therefore not rationally justifiable? Or does he actually do things here, in which case he's potentially falsifiable, and so far falsified?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!  Quote:I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.I am a religious person for refusing to believe in supernatural claims for which there is no evidence? For insisting that claims about physical reality be verified? News to me. Always a real mind-bender hearing Christians claim logic & reason. 
You are not dealing with a rational mind, Zar.
Anyone who believes in such hooey needs professional help and probably heavy duty medication.  (June 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm)BettyG Wrote: I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics. I get the impression that you use the word "physical" as a substitute for "reality" and "metaphysical" as a substitute for "fantasy." It makes one seem as plausible as the other when you put it that way, but it doesn't change that you're comparing reality to fantasy.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould  RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
June 12, 2013 at 7:13 pm
(This post was last modified: June 12, 2013 at 7:30 pm by BettyG.)
(June 11, 2013 at 8:00 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:(June 11, 2013 at 7:13 pm)BettyG Wrote:BettyG: I do not see anyone lining up to volunteer to be crucified. Jesus did it of His own free will.Quote: FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life. , They are historical events.  (June 12, 2013 at 7:13 pm)BettyG Wrote: FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life. Ok. So what? Quote:FallentoReason: Or if you're all-powerful, because nails ain't gonna do crap. People have been through waaay worse in torture camps. And, given that Christianity is true, there's most likely the possibility that some of these torture victims were not saved and hence are experiencing an infinite punishment. Poor omnipotent Jesus' experience doesn't even come close to that. Quote:FallentoReason: And he did this while being all-knowing... knowing that he was going to see the light of day again. Because there was no sacrifice! He went into it knowing he won't stay dead. Nothing was lost and he knew this from the beginning. Quote:FallentoReason: You can't kill a god. That's why there was no sacrifice. What does a bunch of skin and bones mean to an omnimax being?? Even if it was a major loss to such an entity, he resurrected anyways. There was nothing lost, no sacrifice to be had. Quote:FallentoReason:: So... where's the sacrifice again? I wonder why he signed up... oh yeah, being omnipotent and omniscient, it was going to be a winning battle from the beginning. A mortal bodyguard taking a bullet for someone is more of a sacrifice than whatever Jesus allegedly did. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
June 12, 2013 at 10:12 pm
(This post was last modified: June 12, 2013 at 10:41 pm by BettyG.)
(June 10, 2013 at 5:32 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:Jesus forgives those who repent and are committed to not sinning again. Salvation is a process. You have to continue in a state of grace.(June 10, 2013 at 4:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: The Roman soldiers who crucified people were experts at their jobs, they would have never allowed Jesus off that cross if they did not know He was dead. It would have cost them their lives, it is told to us that when the spear was run through His side a mix of blood and water poured out, Jesus had bleed out and pouring out bodily fluids. Again the Romans were proficient at crucifying people, they would break the legs of those still alive after a certain amount of time so they would suffocate shortly after that. They did not do that to Jesus, as prophecy foretold, they knew He was dead. (June 10, 2013 at 11:15 pm)Dena Wrote:(June 10, 2013 at 10:03 pm)BettyG Wrote: I am defining miracles as special acts of God in the world. Since miracles are special acts of God, they can only exist where there is a God who can perform such acts. I started this thread. I get to define miracles. I am defining miracles as special acts of God in the world and time. Since miracles are special acts of God, they can only exist where there is a God who can perform such acts. If one does not believe in God, then they cannot say miracles, as I define them, are impossible. (June 12, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Tonus Wrote:(June 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm)BettyG Wrote: I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics. metaphysical - of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses. It deals with some important questions, such as: What is the meaning of Life? What is my purpose? What is God? What is reality? Why am I here? Why does anything exist instead of nothing? How did I get here? Who and what am I? What will happen when I die? (June 12, 2013 at 12:01 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You are not dealing with a rational mind, Zar. Ad hominem attacks are not an appropriate method of debate. Stick to the topic. I hear a circular argument: If miracles are impossible, the report of any miraculous event must be false, and therefore, miracles are impossible. (June 12, 2013 at 8:18 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:(June 12, 2013 at 7:13 pm)BettyG Wrote: FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life. merriam-webster.com Definition of SACRIFICE 1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar 2: something offered in sacrifice 3a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents> 1: Jesus offered Himself to the Father. 2: Jesus offered Himself. 3 He offered Himself for the forgiveness of sins. 4: He suffered the injustice of a shameful death, though He was innocent. (June 12, 2013 at 10:12 pm)BettyG Wrote: merriam-webster.com Definition of SACRIFICE 1: *Jesus offered Himself to the Father a.k.a. Himself Quote:2: Jesus offered Himself. 2: *Jesus offered Himself [to Himself] Quote:3 He offered Himself for the forgiveness of sins. 3: *He offered Himself [to Himself] for the forgiveness of sins [of which He "invented"] Quote:4: He suffered the injustice of a shameful death, though He was innocent. Innocent or guilty, it doesn't even matter. The penalty wasn't effective because he came back to life. Can you see how senseless this is yet? Here's an overview of what's actually happening: OT god: "humanity needs to live up to the commandments" *intermission: events take place* NT god: "humanity needs to accept my forgiveness" What's the nature of this "intermission" stage? Well, since it's God fooling around with himself, his thought process presumably went something like this: OT god: "I've set up the system by which humanity ought to live and how they will be judged. Maybe it's time for a change though? I know, I'll perform some trivial events of which I know will play out in my favour (because I'm god, duh). This way, I can convince myself that my self-"sacrifice" is enough to make myself change my mind on how I will run things!" There is nothing that is being "conquered" (a word Christians love in their circles) or nothing that is being "defeated". There's no sacrifice or no gift that I can accept, because no transaction was made, no money deposited elsewhere at the expense of someone, nothing lost or given up willingly. It's simply an entity fooling around with itself. The entire thing reduces to a god that is the same yesterday, today and forever paradoxically changing its mind. It's not a sacrifice, it's a change of mind dressed up as a sacrifice. Preach this philosophically redundant message if you want, but what is there to receive? Absolutely nothing.The whole concept is simply nauseating to think about and hardly the stuff of a rational omnimax entity. End of. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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